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Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

Newman

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If only there was just one speaker model used as a standard everywhere. Maybe then we can finally enjoy the recordings and the processing in peace?
I once thought that would be a great idea, then I realised the industry, left to vote, would probably have picked the NS10....
 

Galliardist

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I once thought that would be a great idea, then I realised the industry, left to vote, would probably have picked the NS10....
Don't worry, if it was adopted as a standard, people would immediately circumvent it!
 

Newman

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...and start an upgrades thread...
 

SIY

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It is very common (at least in my experience) for fans of modern tube equipment ( "boutique" designs that are deliberately inaccurate) to complain about accurate, neutral audio reproduction. Common descriptions include "cold", "sterile", "flat", "unmusical" and "lacking life". This doesn't mean that accurate reproduction is cold, sterile, etc., but rather that the listeners were not accustomed to it.
Of course what they NEVER do is demonstrate that there is any sonic difference in the first place. The "coloration" is taken as a given.
 

ahofer

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Many people's resistance is born of their not liking the findings, and that is usually because the findings contradict their contaminated/sighted listening experiences (and which they have used as sole guide for their long journey with a lot of learnings and very large hifi expenses over a very long time). For these people there is no sample size and replication that they will consider adequate, nor will there ever be.
Not me. I like, believe, and follow these findings, but standards of statistical inference stand apart from my predilections (particularly on this evidence-based site). As I indicated before, and as you sort of suggest, they make sense and are by far the best we’ve got. I treat them as a strong Bayesian prior, not fully settled science. But so far, I haven’t seen the scale required for very strong claims about everyone’s preferences. I may be wrong, that scale may be there, but I see majorities of small samples and a somewhat limited range of speakers and listeners. Unfortunately, to do more would be pretty expensive and difficult. I suppose there will always be some uncertainty about what an individual listener will prefer with loudspeakers in rooms and even, perhaps, certain limited distortion in the signal chain.

The “probably” in your quote, suggests a similar view. Toole and Olive Seem to be pretty careful with their claims. Anyway, his statement is slightly different (“build a good-sounding speaker based on measurements) from what I was suggesting (“we can’t reliably generalize to the entire population on Toole and Olive’s preference findings, but it is the best-supported hypothesis so far”).
 
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ahofer

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ahofer

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Why do people keep repeating this strawman?

Use your ears - but do it properly. Blind and controlled.
Or go ahead and use your ears but don’t try to make strong universal claims based on yours (and others’) sighted comparison anecdotes.
 

bodhi

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Or go ahead and use your ears but don’t try to make strong universal claims based on yours (and others’) sighted comparison anecdotes.

Even better, admit that you understand that there is very real possibility of you just imagining things instead of hearing them AND that you knowingly refuse to find out if this is the case.

Unfortunately the "blind tests mask differences" argument is perfect comeback. It would be tragic to change one's correct beliefs because of faulty test process :(
 

ahofer

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Unfortunately the "blind tests mask differences" argument is perfect comeback.
Is it? My understanding is that rapid comparisons have repeatedly been shown to reveal smaller differences to listeners. That whole line of argumentation seems lacking in evidence.

It's similar to the people who say music is better than test signals when the evidence suggests they can more easily hear FR differences in white noise and distortion in sine waves.
 

Galliardist

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Is it? My understanding is that rapid comparisons have repeatedly been shown to reveal smaller differences to listeners. That whole line of argumentation seems lacking in evidence.

It's similar to the people who say music is better than test signals when the evidence suggests they can more easily hear FR differences in white noise and distortion in sine waves.
I do sometimes wonder if some subjectivists have become divorced from their ears, so that they become hopelessly confused when presented with two signals to compare, blind, that sound identical.

Yet WE are supposed to trust those same ears of theirs...
 

SIY

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Even better, admit that you understand that there is very real possibility of you just imagining things instead of hearing them AND that you knowingly refuse to find out if this is the case.

Unfortunately the "blind tests mask differences" argument is perfect comeback. It would be tragic to change one's correct beliefs because of faulty test process :(
It’s a common comeback but not only not perfect, but actually downright silly. The correct response when someone tries to handwave out of basic controls is, “What additional hearing sensitivity do you achieve by peeking? Do you not trust your ears?”
 

GXAlan

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What examples do we have of equipment testing well, but sounding poorly?

Hard to quantify, but I would say that my Kenwood L-08m is one that seems to really show the difference between good and bad recordings. Since I have many bad recordings, it doesn’t sound as good. I described voices as being too thin, and yet thinking about it, it was like listening to a person in an anechoic chamber (sounds thin, but admittedly the other amplifiers make voices feel wider than two inches)


Agree, but in this case, Harman’s research is specifically intended to develop products that are enjoyed by global consumers. The success you point about cables or tweaks is a statistical blip.
 

VQR

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I do sometimes wonder if some subjectivists have become divorced from their ears, so that they become hopelessly confused when presented with two signals to compare, blind, that sound identical.

Yet WE are supposed to trust those same ears of theirs...
Audiophools listen with their eyes but say we don't listen with ours ears.

People here are deaf for using thresholds of hearing to tell if measurements show a device is transparent to the source. True audiophiles can hear the massive yet subtle changes from cables, unless they don't know which is used. Then they're having a bad day. ;)
 
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ahofer

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Harman’s research is specifically intended to develop products that are enjoyed by global consumers.
Enjoyed not just for strictly audible attributes.

Don't get me wrong, they have a lot of products that sound great. But that's neither sufficient, nor (probably) necessary.
 

MattHooper

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It’s a common comeback but not only not perfect, but actually downright silly. The correct response when someone tries to handwave out of basic controls is, “What additional hearing sensitivity do you achieve by peeking? Do you not trust your ears?”

But remember: "Science hasn't explained everything!" (Like the differences I hear between cables...and my aunt hearing her dead husband knock the table at a seance..and astrology...the pyramids....and....)
 

SIY

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Yes. When someone with a dubious claim says "Science doesn't know how to explain X yet..." it's projection. It invariably means "I don't know the science concerning X... "
Exactly so. I saw someone comment elsewhere that people in audio don't use Fourier Transforms. There's a weird tendency among the ignorant to confuse "I don't understand X" with "No-one understands X."
 

voodooless

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Exactly so. I saw someone comment elsewhere that people in audio don't use Fourier Transforms. There's a weird tendency among the ignorant to confuse "I don't understand X" with "No-one understands X."
Likewise, using and understanding are two different things. I bet that only < 0.0001% of people that ever used an Audio CD understand Reed-Solomon.
 

Mart68

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seems to me for the science to be wrong there would have to be some as yet unmeasurable, undetectable property of electrical current.

Not only that but this property must have no effect on anything that use electrical power (since it would have been noticed) except for audio replay. Where its effect is so powerful as to create audible differences.

It would mean that all foo products must have been developed by people who have identified and quantified this property but rather than claim their nine million dollar Nobel prize are content to keep it a secret and carry on grubbing around knocking out magic fuses, grounding boxes and the rest of it.

Or they just blundered about trying all sorts of random crap until they accidentally hit on something that works - but they don't know why it works.

None of that seems to be remotely likely.
 
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