Marantz SR7015 8K AVR Review

[truwarrior22]

Imo the Denons changed with the introduction of the x series, I had an X4000 which sounded significantly different to my Denon 3313, many listening tests between the two with the same speakers, I could not tame the harshness/brightness in the x4000 which at the time I paired with paradigm milleniaone’s.
The Marantz I have now sr6012 sounds like my 3313, ultimately I will be purchasing a 3700h soon so it will be interesting to see if I get the same issues I personally had with the x4000.
Personally I find the Marantz sounds warmer than the newer Denons I’ve tried at least with the speakers mentioned, where that is added I don’t know, Hdam, opamps?

I think your right about the sound changing. I’m in the process of getting the relays on my AVR-2808ci replaced. Hopefully this will make it last longer. I’m not sure about this whole warm sound as well. I notice some difference in the lower mid range, but not enough to say it’s warmer, etc.

 

[Dan1210]

It is added in marketing. There is no evidence of warm sound anywhere.

I respect you Amirm and I’m certainly no believer in hi fi snake oil however in my experience as noted in my post there was a difference in sound. Now this was in reference to the models I noted, how that fares now I don’t know as I have not heard the latest Denon models. At the time I had the x4000 I also had a pair of Genelec m40’s. Personally I found them to be both brighter sounding the the 3313 and the sr6012.
I have also seen others noting the same with Denon vs Marantz receivers, I know it’s there I’ve heard it and returned units because of it. I would happily take a Pepsi challenge on it.
Ps. I used a Rotel 1565 at the time on all the receivers mentioned so this was via the pre amp outputs. Also tried the speakers direct with the same results.

 

[Martin_320]

... the HEOS Amazon HD music integration is nice, wish they made it as good as the Amazon music app itself, except if you use the latter you have to go via BT / AirPlay and so no Ultra HD! We all need to make some noise about this so the integration within the HEOS app is made better - doesn't even show my custom playlist, leave the ability to create one. Not sure if it's lagging behind in features because not many really use Amz music and so no real push...?

For HEOS + Amazon UltraHD enjoyment I've found this cool trick:

1. Use your phone's HEOS app to search for any Amazon Music "Station" genre that you like.
(An Amazon "Music Station" is essentially a never-ending lossless/hirez playlist.)
2. Add it to your HEOS "Favorites".
3. Repeat the above until your collection of Music Stations is complete for now (I have almost 100 Music Stations in my Marantz HEOS Favorites).
4. Now use your Marantz remote to select the source HEOS button;
5. Go to "HEOS Favorites", and on the big TV screen (the Marantz GUI) you'll see all the Stations (which you previously chosen with your HEOS phone app) have all magically been put there (and they will always be there every time your receiver logs into HEOS streaming - even if your phone is switched off).

NB. From then on you don't need your smartphone app anymore to listen to your never-ending lossless playlists of your favorite musical genres!

See attached images....
Pic1 - HEOS Favorites program selection;
Pic2 - HEOS Music installed 'Stations' list;
Pic3 - lossless 192kHz song playing from the 'Stan Getz' themed Amazon Music Station.

 

[peng]

@peng - Thanks for reiterating all that and helping put things into perspective!

Yes, I definitely won't be able to make out that drop in the HF range, I even think there is some diff in my right vs left ear.
It helps knowing that you yourself would've invested in one of these at the right price.

So, got the unit yesterday and hooked it up.
It's one thing to see it in pics and another to see it in person in all its glory - she is a beauty - looks very different than the Pioneer its replacing but weighs a bit less / a bit less deep.

Initial run was good, but then did Audyssey and it lost bass.
After some reading figured it out and made some tweaks (got the phone app as well), so things are now back to how I prefer.
Of course there is still scope for learning more and making further adjustments - there always is.
I like it that it has a dedicated 2 ch mode under speaker settings and that it has a manual override so my towers can be used with no sub, XO, etc.
I also like that Audyssey can be turned OFF and old school 9-band GEQ and Tone controls can be used - Pio had this but was bit of a work.

Initial impression of the sound with the same speaker setup is that it's smooth (almost buttery) with some sort of a nice romantic sheen to it.
But the Pio gave you a sense of looking through a very clear lens... Marantz sound is pleasing but also feels a bit muddied at times.
This is with 2ch stereo under the Music mode, Audyssey set to Flat with DEQ at +10, have also tried GEQ and tone controls, the former always seems better over a wide range of volume levels, so left it at that.
May be it needs more run in time to break-in, or I just need to run RoomEQ again, or it's just a getting used to thing.

Tried DVol & DEQ for some late night movie watching yesterday, both are some pretty cool features the Pio didn't have. May be it had the DRange, but a rather not so great one.
Here too the Pio had a bit more sharper bass / punch on the same content.
I will have to add some Atmos Ht. speakers as well to get a real sense of its capabilities - I have some old JBLs sitting around, which I could re-purpose. Any suggestions...?
JBL CS6100BG

It was when I got to watching movies I realized that Pio had 6 REQ memory presets which I couldn't figure out if the Marantz also has.
So, I could have one for projector screen down vs not (music mode), etc. It's a 120" screen going over the TV so it does have an effect on things.
Pio MCACC Presets

I did see something called Smart Select, can that be used?
May be I can run separate REQ for music vs movie modes (screen up vs down) and then send it to the AVR and have it memorized in those 1-4 smart select buttons?
Or, does it only keep one Audyssey setting at a time...?

So much to learn, going to leave it running for some days... which reminds me... the HEOS Amazon HD music integration is nice, wish they made it as good as the Amazon music app itself, except if you use the latter you have to go via BT / AirPlay and so no Ultra HD! We all need to make some noise about this so the integration within the HEOS app is made better - doesn't even show my custom playlist, leave the ability to create one. Not sure if it's lagging behind in features because not many really use Amz music and so no real push...?

Also the Denon HEOS 7 HS2 speaker that came along is nice as well, a bit too bass'y (couple D-class Amps they say), but has tone control, BT and ethernet port. Not sure I'd spend $599/- on it, may be half that, but can't complain when you get it free...

I also prefer Marantz look, and that's one of the reasons I tried two prepros before switching back to Denon.

Since you mentioned using Audyssey flat, or the graphic EQ feature for two channel use, I don't know if you have seen the graphs I posted, they showed how much improvements could be made using the Editor App, especially when used with Ratbuddssey. That's just in terms of flattening the response, so that you can customize the response to your taste. If you are brave, you can use the combo to try making your own sound signature, just for fun experiments, and doing it that way should be far superior (in terms of flexibility, and less chance to make things worse) than playing it with the graphic EQ.

 

[peng]

It is added in marketing. There is no evidence of warm sound anywhere.

For those who don't mind trying the EQ approach, such as PEQ (Yamaha), GEQ (D+M) or even Audyssey Editor App (I know it's not meant for that but..), what kind of adjustments do you think will result in what most people consider a "warm" sound?

 

[Perfect_pint]

Running a SR7013. I'm disappointed but not supprised and suspect mine proforms similar. Great for movies though. Looking at getting a Topping E30 for better 2 channel lossless listening. Side note to this well-written review (thank you Amirm), HEOS which is on Marantz and Denon is great. I and my other half use it all day, every day and have The Zone 1 in the basement theatre and Zone 2 in the lounge and zone 3 for the lounge subwoofer. Not sure what other brands apps are like this system is great to live with.

 

[Vasr]

For those who don't mind trying the EQ approach, such as PEQ (Yamaha), GEQ (D+M) or even Audyssey Editor App (I know it's not meant for that but..), what kind of adjustments do you think will result in what most people consider a "warm" sound?

The so-called "warmth" (based on spending a large amount of time trying to find the right tone in playing music where it is a real thing than reproduction) has more to do with harmonics shaping (dare I call it euphonic distortion?) than tonal balance that EQ affects. You can try to do aggressive roll-offs in high frequency range or exaggerate the lows, etc to remove a tinny, bright output but that just loses detail and sounds dull or bassy. Not the same thing as "warmth".

Whether you can realistically introduce "warmth" in low noise/distortion hi-fi equipment via harmonic content shaping is a different issue. Designers have had multiple philosophies - even vs odd harmonics, removal of higher-order harmonics, etc. This gets into religious debates.

As an extreme example, you will find a good correlation between tube amps considered warm and the harmonics in their outputs. But they won't give good SINAD numbers!

 

[amirm]

For those who don't mind trying the EQ approach, such as PEQ (Yamaha), GEQ (D+M) or even Audyssey Editor App (I know it's not meant for that but..), what kind of adjustments do you think will result in what most people consider a "warm" sound?

Rolled off highs? And more bass....

 

[peng]

Rolled off highs? And more bass....

Okay..., and sorry that was a rhetorical question actually..

And I found another way accidentally. When I first switched from my AVR-4308CI to the Marantz AV7005, I heard that warm sound, only to find out later somehow dynamic EQ was on. Dynamic EQ was quite new at the time so may be it got turned on by default after running Audyssey. I typically listen to about 70 dB SPL and the Denon had no DEQ, so that explained the warm vs punchy sound thing. The Denon got a firmware update for DEQ shorter after, so the person I handed down to was able to hear the same warm sound out of a Denon. That sort of support what you are saying, increase the bass, and roll off the high because that's basically what DEQ do at low volume, it wouldn't roll of the high, but it would increase the bass a lot more than it would with the high so effectively doing what you are suggesting, in a general sense.

 

[peng]

The so-called "warmth" (based on spending a large amount of time trying to find the right tone in playing music where it is a real thing than reproduction) has more to do with harmonics shaping (dare I call it euphonic distortion?) than tonal balance that EQ affects. You can try to do aggressive roll-offs in high frequency range or exaggerate the lows, etc to remove a tinny, bright output but that just loses detail and sounds dull or bassy. Not the same thing as "warmth".

Whether you can realistically introduce "warmth" in low noise/distortion hi-fi equipment via harmonic content shaping is a different issue. Designers have had multiple philosophies - even vs odd harmonics, removal of higher-order harmonics, etc. This gets into religious debates.

As an extreme example, you will find a good correlation between tube amps considered warm and the harmonics in their outputs. But they won't give good SINAD numbers!

Yeah I heard all that before too, in general they cited even harmonics being warm, especially the 2nd and fourth. But if you compare the FFTs of the Marantz vs Denon, they looked very similar, if anything, Marantz typically has more 3rd the 2nd, compared to Denon's, so I doubt in this case it would explain what the hearsay were saying..

 

[Martin_320]

Yeah I heard all that before too, in general they cited even harmonics being warm, especially the 2nd and fourth. But if you compare the FFTs of the Marantz vs Denon, they looked very similar, if anything, Marantz typically has more 3rd the 2nd, compared to Denon's, so I doubt in this case it would explain what the hearsay were saying..

Another factor in determining a 'warm' sound is dynamic compression of the bass. Here are some typical cases to illustrate:

~ "Fat bass" -- EDM and rap producers like it. They do it by applying selective multi-band compression -- ie. compressing the bass more than the higher frequencies -- so the hi-hats remain sharp while the synth bass lines are warm and fat.

~ Vinyl -- it has a warm sound. Why is that? Because of deliberate compression applied to the bass during mastering to ensure that the stylus won't jump out of the groove, and also to ensure that the tracks themselves don't take up too much space on the disc.

~ Tube amps -- they have the characteristic warm sound. Same thing -- compression/crunch kicks-in when you crank them up.

~ 'Warm sounding' speakers -- resulting from mechanical compression of the bass driver during its excursion cycles (eg. relating to the elasticity/stiffness/mechanical resistance of the rubber surround and other moving parts);

~ "Soft-clipping" circuits on solid-state amps. As a student I had a NAD 3130 stereo amp. When engaged, the Soft-Clipping function made the bass fat and warm sounding. When disengaged, the amp sounded a lot more linear, and dare I say, 'colder'.

...and so on.

In summary I think that a complete dynamic response 3-D map would reveal exactly which frequencies have which level of compression vs linearity, at which particular amplitude. And if you see dynamic compression in the bass, that would indicate 'warmness'. To measure it you'd need to take lots of frequency sweeps with each sweep being performed at a progressively higher signal gain, and all the time comparing the input from the output to determine how much compression is taking place at which particular frequency and input amplitude. (Just doing one FR sweep plot at a fixed amplitude isn't going to show this.)

 

[Vasr]

Yeah I heard all that before too, in general they cited even harmonics being warm, especially the 2nd and fourth. But if you compare the FFTs of the Marantz vs Denon, they looked very similar, if anything, Marantz typically has more 3rd the 2nd, compared to Denon's, so I doubt in this case it would explain what the hearsay were saying..

I am not talking about Denon or Marantz. I don't even know if the perceived "warmth" of Marantz is a real thing.

You asked a question if one can use PEQ to get "warm" sound.

I was giving you examples of where "warmth" is actually achieved and it is not from using tonal balance. Those manifest in significant distortion numbers because of harmonics. When people talk about warm sound in tube equipment, that is where it is coming from.

As to what level it can be achieved while keeping SINAD low in HiFi, I don't know as I mentioned.

@Martin_320 makes very good points above.

On a related note, why would you assume a single 1khz FFT exposes all the differences between two pieces of equipment?

 

[Vasr]

Another factor in determining a 'warm' sound is dynamic compression of the bass. Here are some typical cases to illustrate:

~ "Fat bass" -- EDM and rap producers like it. They do it by applying selective multi-band compression -- ie. compressing the bass more than the higher frequencies -- so the hi-hats remain sharp while the synth bass lines are warm and fat.

~ Vinyl -- it has a warm sound. Why is that? Because of deliberate compression applied to the bass during mastering to ensure that the stylus won't jump out of the groove, and also to ensure that the tracks themselves don't take up too much space on the disc.

~ Tube amps -- they have the characteristic warm sound. Same thing -- compression/crunch kicks-in when you crank them up.

~ 'Warm sounding' speakers -- resulting from mechanical compression of the bass driver during its excursion cycles (eg. relating to the elasticity/stiffness/mechanical resistance of the rubber surround and other moving parts);

~ "Soft-clipping" circuits on solid-state amps. As a student I had a NAD 3130 stereo amp. When engaged, the Soft-Clipping function made the bass fat and warm sounding. When disengaged, the amp sounded a lot more linear, and dare I say, 'colder'.

...and so on.

In summary I think that a complete dynamic response 3-D map would reveal exactly which frequencies have which level of compression vs linearity, at which particular amplitude. And if you see dynamic compression in the bass, that would indicate 'warmness'. To measure it you'd need to take lots of frequency sweeps with each sweep being performed at a progressively higher signal gain, and all the time comparing the input from the output to determine how much compression is taking place at which particular frequency and input amplitude. (Just doing one FR sweep plot at a fixed amplitude isn't going to show this.)

Good points, however compression is more of a correlation than causality for "warmth". You can achieve some "heft" or "weight" to the sound by compressing them and with that being able to elevate the lower range volume to affect tonal balance but that typically creates a dull bass - in the extreme case more commonly known as "one-note bass" where it is difficult to differentiate notes separately due to lack of dynamics. So, it isn't a sufficient condition. But it can be a weak and cheap approximation to "warmth".

The "warmth" of tube amps (and I know this from years of playing around with modeling units for to reproduce the various types of guitar amps as well as effects units) is really from their ability to "distort" differently. But it isn't just "linear distortion" (of the type compression or EQ produces) but rather "non-linear distortions" that is a necessary and sufficient condition.

If one was intentionally modifying the distortion profile for a specific type of sound, it wouldn't be equally applied across the frequency range to assume one measure at some frequency would explain it. So, your point of taking multiple measurements at multiple amplitudes holds but also would require a measurement and analysis of the non-linear distortions across the frequency range as well.

 

[Martin_320]

...So, your point of taking multiple measurements at multiple amplitudes holds but also would require a measurement and analysis of the non-linear distortions across the frequency range as well.

But surely what I'm suggesting would do exactly that.
I mean, if you take multiple 'slices' with each slice being a 15Hz-22kHz continuous sweep, with the first one being a very low amplitude input; then the next slice being another sweep from 15Hz to 22kHz but this time at a slightly higher amplitude; and then take another say 100 slices, with each one at progressively greater amplitude -- until the very last sweep gets to max possible amplitude.
Then if you plot all the results (say as a 3-D surface map) then surely it would reveal where any non-linear distortions are -- at any given frequency at any given amplitude within the entire '3D sonic envelope' -- no?

 

[Vasr]

But surely what I'm suggesting would do exactly that.
I mean, if you take multiple 'slices' with each slice being a 15Hz-22kHz continuous sweep, with the first one being a very low amplitude input; then the next slice being another sweep from 15Hz to 22kHz but this time at a slightly higher amplitude; and then take another say 100 slices, with each one at progressively greater amplitude -- until the very last sweep gets to max possible amplitude.
Then if you plot all the results (say as a 3-D surface map) then surely it would reveal where any non-linear distortions are -- at any given frequency at any given amplitude within the entire '3D sonic envelope' -- no?

Not disagreeing but we are talking about "linearity" in different contexts. What you have suggested is measuring - given a certain input level across the spectrum, does it reproduce it proportionately across the spectrum and does it do so at different input levels. If there is any distortion found here, it will be in the amplitude difference and this is called a "linear distortion" (yes, it is counter-intuitive) because it does not necessarily introduce any new frequencies given an input. The distortion that does produce spurious frequencies like harmonic distortion by definition is called non-linear distortion. Although the non-linear distortion might show up a slight bit as affecting your linearity measurement (depending on speed of sweep and decay characteristics), you would need to measure with a single sustained frequency at a time and do FFT to capture what the non-linear distortions are.

The current measuring standard is to do this measurement with a 0db 1khz signal and look at the harmonics produced. I am suggesting this needs to be done over multiple frequencies spread over the spectrum, but one at a time, to get a fuller picture of what role harmonics are playing in what may be sensed as "warm" or not since that perception is heavily influenced by frequency. This is only relevant in equipment that are supposedly designed to have a "warm" sound signature.

Most equipment built to have low distortion and be transparent have harmonics likely out of audible range regardless of what input frequency is used, so the single test as done here makes sense for that purpose.

 

[Martin_320]

. . . I am suggesting this needs to be done over multiple frequencies spread over the spectrum, but one at a time, to get a fuller picture of what role harmonics are playing ...

I see where you are coming from.
However, regarding what you say the above, I would go much, much further, and take such FFT spectral plots at many frequency points and at many amplitudes. Of course it would create create vast amounts of data, but with today's analytics capabilities it should be easily possible.

To me, making just one discrete FFT plot at 1kHz and at only one amplitude (0dB) is inadequate, and from which it's impossible to show the full sonic picture of anything you're attempting to measure. Moreover, with today's computing power, HDD storage and big-data analytics, surely it's a no-brainer to extend this type of FFT harmonic analysis to create a complete and seamless spectral/harmonic/dynamic/linearity "model"? With that wouldn't we be able to measure/describe accurately how an audio component would behave in response to all possible inputs?

 

[peng]

I see where you are coming from.
However, regarding what you say the above, I would go much, much further, and take such FFT spectral plots at many frequency points and at many amplitudes. Of course it would create create vast amounts of data, but with today's analytics capabilities it should be easily possible.

To me, making just one discrete FFT plot at 1kHz and at only one amplitude (0dB) is inadequate, and from which it's impossible to show the full sonic picture of anything you're attempting to measure. Moreover, with today's computing power, HDD storage and big-data analytics, surely it's a no-brainer to extend this type of FFT harmonic analysis to create a complete and seamless spectral/harmonic/dynamic/linearity "model"? With that wouldn't we be able to measure/describe accurately how an audio component would behave in response to all possible inputs?

I don't disagree but we probably should also consider other factors such as:

- The THD, as specified, is 0.05% 20 to 20,000 Hz. So regardless of the harmonic contents for each single frequency, the "total" is only 0.05%.

- The hardware difference between Denon and Marantz equivalent models (I am only comparing D+M) on the prepro side is just the HDAM, that is not for EQ, tuning, or harmonic adder/subtractor. The power amp sections between the two are identical.

So I think to worry about the FFT for each frequency would seem like over thinking, considering the identical power amps and the near identical preamp except the HDAM that exists only on Marantz (not in the NR series).

To me, any perceived warm sound would have to come from the >10 kHz roll off, and that has no effects on analog inputs/direct mode. As always, YMMV, this is just my opinion base on available information. On the subjective side, opinions also vary, but I do believe more people claimed Marantz has a "warm" sound relative to Denon's, though they are people (seemingly less..) did not think so. I am one of those who could not tell a difference, not saying it is not there, just that I didn't hear it, and that's before I had seen the schematics and parts list so I wasn't biased by that..

 

[Mr.XO]

For HEOS + Amazon UltraHD enjoyment I've found this cool trick:

1. Use your phone's HEOS app to search for any Amazon Music "Station" genre that you like.
(An Amazon "Music Station" is essentially a never-ending lossless/hirez playlist.)
2. Add it to your HEOS "Favorites".
3. Repeat the above until your collection of Music Stations is complete for now (I have almost 100 Music Stations in my Marantz HEOS Favorites).
4. Now use your Marantz remote to select the source HEOS button;
5. Go to "HEOS Favorites", and on the big TV screen (the Marantz GUI) you'll see all the Stations (which you previously chosen with your HEOS phone app) have all magically been put there (and they will always be there every time your receiver logs into HEOS streaming - even if your phone is switched off).

NB. From then on you don't need your smartphone app anymore to listen to your never-ending lossless playlists of your favorite musical genres!

See attached images....
Pic1 - HEOS Favorites program selection;
Pic2 - HEOS Music installed 'Stations' list;
Pic3 - lossless 192kHz song playing from the 'Stan Getz' themed Amazon Music Station.

Thanks @Martin_320.
I'd have never figured that out, at least not for a while...

I did find that the HEOS app has a History tile under the Music tab which also keeps track of all the stations you played, etc.
Wish that also listed recently played albums, tracks, etc., and allowed to make playlist from them.
Simpler till would be to just show my custom playlists on Amazon, after all I'm signed in. Hopefully some day....

 

[Mr.XO]

Why do I see this when I post something...?
Did I do / say something wrong?

This message is awaiting moderator approval, and is invisible to normal visitors.

 

[Mr.XO]

Still wondering if I should get the X4700H and try owing to the reviews / recommendations here, and then I run into this YouTube video,

Some HDMI issues with all the new 2020 models..?!

Also, if not using the AVR as an AVP, then does the DAC related SINAD #s still count as they only seem better (75 vs 97) when the internal AMPs are disabled / disconnected.
Not sure if the previous gen. models like X4500H even support that kind of pure pre-amp mode. So it may not be that great if you get X4500H going by the X4700H reviews...? And, that would make it the exact same as SR7013...?

Yeah, I know I should just be happy with the SR7013, but there are somethings that bug you... and you've got to put them to rest!