Marantz "Cinema Series" "2022-2023" AV Launch Thread

[sarumbear]

I'm curious to know why the C50 would have significantly improved dynamics over the C60.

What does “improved dynamics” mean?

 

[Bren Derlin]

What does “improved dynamics” mean?

That's a good question. Not sure I have an answer. It was a comment/description of the Cinema 50/60 series raised in the Marantz video above. ...it's also a topical of interest when people compare speakers. Apparently some are more dynamic than others. I've heard flabby bass response from speakers in the past, vs. faster tighter bass in others. Is that part of the dynamics.

For an AV receiver, would dynamics refer to the receivers ability to push out sudden volume changes in a soundtrack or music. Musically, it could be from the attack of percussion/kick drums, to nuanced decay of a acoustic string instruments. I can think of the dynamic musical attacks from Dream Threater throughout their entire record collection. I'm not sure there's a way for a processor to interpret that information differently from AV receiver to the next.

If "improved dynamics" doesn't exist as a quantifiable feature from one receiver to the next, then Marantz and nearly every other AV gear provider/their respective marketing propaganda machines and AV reviewers are feeding consumers a big line of bullshit. ...which... wouldn't be the first the time. But damn. They sure to wax poetic about the topic...

 

[sarumbear]

That's a good question. Not sure I have an answer. It was a comment/description of the Cinema 50/60 series raised in the Marantz video above. ...it's also a topical of interest when people compare speakers. Apparently some are more dynamic than others. I've heard flabby bass response from speakers in the past, vs. faster tighter bass in others. Is that part of the dynamics.

For an AV receiver, would dynamics refer to the receivers ability to push out sudden volume changes in a soundtrack or music. Musically, it could be from the attack of percussion/kick drums, to nuanced decay of a acoustic string instruments. I can think of the dynamic musical attacks from Dream Threater throughout their entire record collection. I'm not sure there's a way for a processor to interpret that information differently from AV receiver to the next.

If "improved dynamics" doesn't exist as a quantifiable feature from one receiver to the next, then Marantz and nearly every other AV gear provider/their respective marketing propaganda machines and AV reviewers are feeding consumers a big line of bullshit. ...which... wouldn't be the first the time. But damn. They sure to wax poetic about the topic...

I am engineer and I can categorically say that dynamics in such use is meaningless. I urge you not to include it in your selection criteria.

 

[Bren Derlin]

I am engineer and I can categorically say that dynamics in such use is meaningless. I urge you not to include in your selection criteria.

So it's a total line of bullshit.

 

[Karls_speaker_works]

"Dynamics" could be related to limitations in the slew rate of the power supply rail or output devices.

 

[sarumbear]

"Dynamics" could be related to limitations in the slew rate of the power supply rail or output devices.

The rate of change of voltage versus time is called slew rate. In amplifiers that is related to power output vs frequency. If an amplifier delivers its specified power output at its highest rated frequency then it is not slew rate limited. Dynamics is not a term used in EE, it is a branch of mechanical engineering.

 

[Karls_speaker_works]

I meant current slew rate also. It can be limited by ESR of bulk capacitors, the amount of bulk capacitance or resistance of output devices among other things. It is a parameter in power supply design.

 

[peng]

I meant current slew rate also. It can be limited by ESR of bulk capacitors, the amount of bulk capacitance or resistance of output devices among other things. It is a parameter in power supply design.

Not really, for class A/AB amps, the PS rail voltage is typically fixed. Slew rate in audio amps generally refer to the maximum rate of change of the output voltage in response to a step change in the input voltage.

It is typically not the limiting factor any more. Amps that are voltage limited by the rail voltage could of course result in an amp not being "dynamic enough" but that's just one possible reason and in this case clipping would be an issue too.

 

[Karls_speaker_works]

Not really, for class A/AB amps, the PS rail voltage is typically fixed. Slew rate in audio amps generally refer to the maximum rate of change of the output voltage in response to a step change in the input voltage.

It is typically not the limiting factor any more. Amps that are voltage limited by the rail voltage could of course result in an amp not being "dynamic enough" but that's just one possible reason and in this case clipping would be an issue too.

Yes, that is how slew rate is defined from the perspective of the amplifier designer and the spec sheet. I was thinking of "system" performance, which includes the loudspeaker impedance (versus a fixed resistor), cables, connections etc. I'd like to know if the below loudspeaker, rated at "6 ohms nominal" (but honetly is more like 4 ohms nominal, 1.5 ohms min @ 28kHz) can be driven to a proper 100dB output level in my fairly small living room (14x12x12ht) without distortion under high dynamic peaks. I currently drive the below curve front full-range speakers with an older VSX-820 Pioneer receiver rated at 80W/Ch without issue to deafening levels. Can the measurements done here by AmirM ensure that said load can be driven effortlessly by the newer Marantz receivers? I want to believe the 4 ohm testing would confirm this, but I'm not 100% sure. What do you think? Is this too far off topic?

 

[peng]

Yes, that is how slew rate is defined from the perspective of the amplifier designer and the spec sheet. I was thinking of "system" performance, which includes the loudspeaker impedance (versus a fixed resistor), cables, connections etc. I'd like to know if the below loudspeaker, rated at "6 ohms nominal" (but honetly is more like 4 ohms nominal, 1.5 ohms min @ 28kHz) can be driven to a proper 100dB output level in my fairly small living room (14x12x12ht) without distortion under high dynamic peaks. I currently drive the below curve front full-range speakers with an older VSX-820 Pioneer receiver rated at 80W/Ch without issue to deafening levels. Can the measurements done here by AmirM ensure that said load can be driven effortlessly by the newer Marantz receivers? I want to believe the 4 ohm testing would confirm this, but I'm not 100% sure. What do you think? Is this too far off topic?

It depends, cannot say for sure based on just the attached impedance and phase angle graphs because the other factors such as the speaker's sensitivity, power handling capability (if it can only handle say 120 W average, 200 W peak just as an example) then the Denon 3000 and 4000 series will be adequate regardless) and your seating distance, and your listening habit are almost relevant to your question.

Having said that, calculations are good, but given that your current 80 W rated Pioneer VSX-820 can do the job at deafening levels, then surely any of those Denon/Marantz AVRs should be able to do the same, or better.

If you still want to check it out with the calculations, it is easy enough to use online calculators such as the two linked many times before:

Peak SPL Calculator

Crown Audio - Professional Power Amplifiers

www.crownaudio.com

 

[Karls_speaker_works]

It depends, cannot say for sure based on just the attached impedance and phase angle graphs because the other factors such as the speaker's sensitivity, power handling capability (if it can only handle say 120 W average, 200 W peak just as an example) then the Denon 3000 and 4000 series will be adequate regardless) and your seating distance, and your listening habit are almost relevant to your question.

Having said that, calculations are good, but given that your current 80 W rated Pioneer VSX-820 can do the job at deafening levels, then surely any of those Denon/Marantz AVRs should be able to do the same, or better.

If you still want to check it out with the calculations, it is easy enough to use online calculators such as the two linked many times before:

Peak SPL Calculator

Crown Audio - Professional Power Amplifiers

www.crownaudio.com

Before responding here, I was reading the X3700H thread where you and dlaloum were discussing the same subject.

Very interesting. The first "peak" SPL calculator suggests I should be able to achieve 102-105dB (I've used both calculators previously, but thanks for posting the links.) The Crown calculator suggests that I need 113-143W of amplifier power to achieve 100dB SPL - with 0dB of dynamic headroom. Since I experience the whole "soundstage collapse" a little before 100dB, the amps in the VSX-820 are running out of oomph almost exactly where the Crown calculator suggests (98.5 dB). Fortunately it runs comfortably to the mid-90's and measures decently enough with the MCACC correction enabled. This is an LCR measurement and it sounds excellent BTW.

 

[Kael]

I notice that in Marantz's very lengthy spec sheet on their website that any mention of a DAC chip is strangely missing...

 

[tonycollinet]

I meant current slew rate also. It can be limited by ESR of bulk capacitors, the amount of bulk capacitance or resistance of output devices among other things. It is a parameter in power supply design.

If it can't deliver the current then the voltage would also be limited. And would therefore be slew rate limited. But the definition above still applies. If full power can be achieved at 20KHz then there is no slew rate limitation.

 

[peng]

Before responding here, I was reading the X3700H thread where you and dlaloum were discussing the same subject.

Very interesting. The first "peak" SPL calculator suggests I should be able to achieve 102-105dB (I've used both calculators previously, but thanks for posting the links.) The Crown calculator suggests that I need 113-143W of amplifier power to achieve 100dB SPL - with 0dB of dynamic headroom. Since I experience the whole "soundstage collapse" a little before 100dB, the amps in the VSX-820 are running out of oomph almost exactly where the Crown calculator suggests (98.5 dB). Fortunately it runs comfortably to the mid-90's and measures decently enough with the MCACC correction enabled. This is an LCR measurement and it sounds excellent BTW.

View attachment 235034

Both calculators will get you the same results if you enter the same data.

 

[Karls_speaker_works]

Both calculators will get you the same results if you enter the same data.

I realized after I posted that (almost a month ago now!) that there were different assumptions required for each calculator.

 

[CC122]

Marantz measurements attached.

They look very exciting - besting their internal measurements of the 8805, which also marry up very closely with Amir’s bench test.

Fantastic to see SU coming to the party with something reproducible - props to Amir for his relentless pursuit of science based measures to push them to this point.

Hopefully someone can get one on a bench for Amir soon to confirm…

 

[CC122]

And a few power ratings for the AMP10 as well…

 

[peng]

And a few power ratings for the AMP10 as well…

View attachment 247679


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View attachment 247680

Thank you for posting the results, are you allowed to disclose the source of the information? Not big deal, just being curious. Previous D+M internal measurements Amir looked different, more similar to the formats Amir used.

If those flag ship Marantz AV devices now have measurements so similar to Denon's, I have to say there's no more basis of the claimed "Marantz sound", not for analog inputs and no DSPs anyway.

 

[Matias]

SINAD 106 for the balanced pre-outs of the AV 10 is not bad, finally some improvement! Now that price though...

 

[Bren Derlin]

A $7,000 pre-amp? ....that's not a Cinema series AVR. ...or are you hoping that dac finds it's way into the Cinema 40, 50, 60, and 70?....