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Denon AVR-X3700H AVR Review

Acerun

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Are there video settings on the X3700H that one needs to make certain that one has set correctly for the best quality picture? I run everything through the x3700H, fire Stick 4K Plus, Apple TV 4K, ultra HD Blu-ray DVD, DirecTV... I believe there is a video bypass setting and I'm wondering if that is what everyone is using? Also, since all of my signals are going through the AVR first and only going out to the TV as the video signal, is there any need for eARC to be turned on? I don't think so but I'd love to get confirmation. For what it's worth my TV is the new Sony 65-in A95K.
 

Tagh_Azog

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Yes. They both measure pretty much identical. So unless you see a feature in the AVM which you absolutely must have, go or stay with the X3700.
But many people will say that the hardware quality will be different for the price, that a preamp specialized will have more quality components, better DAC, better power alim.
How would they perform the same ? I would like to go for the X3700, but as I have high end speakers, i don't want it to be the weak point in my sound chain.
 

delta76

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But many people will say that the hardware quality will be different for the price, that a preamp specialized will have more quality components, better DAC, better power alim.
How would they perform the same ? I would like to go for the X3700, but as I have high end speakers, i don't want it to be the weak point in my sound chain.
Because Amir measured their dac and amp functional and x3700 did great? More expensive components do not necessarily mean better performance. It is the design of the board which matters the most.

If x3700h fits your bill you can throw a few hundred bucks more for extended warranty (5 or 6 years), if that puts your mind at peace.
 

HarmonicTHD

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But many people will say that the hardware quality will be different for the price, that a preamp specialized will have more quality components, better DAC, better power alim.
How would they perform the same ? I would like to go for the X3700, but as I have high end speakers, i don't want it to be the weak point in my sound chain.
Exactly what delta76 says.

I have KEF Reference 3 plus two KEF92. So no don’t worry about sound quality of your high end speakers.
 

Tagh_Azog

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Ok thank you, I will go for the X3700 then :)
I wanted to find somewhere the MCH K38 for amplifier but cannot find it anywhere, was going for MCX-2 + MCX-3 then for my 5 speakers, will it be good?

Also i've seen Amir doesn't like power filters, i wanted to give a try to a TAGA HARMONY PF-2000 to plug all of my HT hardware, but i'm not sure if this is something of good value.
 

HarmonicTHD

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Ok thank you, I will go for the X3700 then :)
I wanted to find somewhere the MCH K38 for amplifier but cannot find it anywhere, was going for MCX-2 + MCX-3 then for my 5 speakers, will it be good?

Also i've seen Amir doesn't like power filters, i wanted to give a try to a TAGA HARMONY PF-2000 to plug all of my HT hardware, but i'm not sure if this is something of good value.
Safe yourself your hard earned money. Powerfilters are snakeoil. See the reviews here. Any decently engineered amp, dac etc. is not susceptible to power noise and power filters won’t improve a bit their performance.
 

HarmonicTHD

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Ok thank you, I will go for the X3700 then :)
I wanted to find somewhere the MCH K38 for amplifier but cannot find it anywhere, was going for MCX-2 + MCX-3 then for my 5 speakers, will it be good?

Also i've seen Amir doesn't like power filters, i wanted to give a try to a TAGA HARMONY PF-2000 to plug all of my HT hardware, but i'm not sure if this is something of good value.
As for the Nuprime amp. A quick google got me the manufacturer specs of ca 80dB THD. That is ca 10dB worse as the combined performance THD plus N of the x3700 built in power amps (ca 90dB THDpN or SINAD ). So you would spent money to worsen the situation independently if it is audible or not.

So either use the built in power amps of the X3700 or if you need more power go for a bigger x model. Eg 4700 or higher.

Or if your heart is set on additional power amps look into the Hypex/Purify based amps from eg Audiophonics etc.
Or if money is no concern go for the Benchmark AHB2.

Also remember you don’t need much power for your surrounds and might use the built in amps. Center and the two mains take most of the power.
 

Tagh_Azog

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I don't understand what you are talking about ca db THD, i don't see at all how a integrated amp like X3700 would output enough power for 5 Focal Electra speakers compared to a dedicated amp like MCH K38 or MCX...
Also i don't want higher model because Amir reviews show them to be worse than X3700 and i don't need the extra channels. I just know the X3700 won't have enough power output for my 5 speakers especially if it is using some of its power for the preamplification stage already.

The idea with K38 was to bridge front lane to get double the power on my front and central speaker while my surround would get the normal power non bridged.
 

peng

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But many people will say that the hardware quality will be different for the price, that a preamp specialized will have more quality components, better DAC, better power alim.
How would they perform the same ? I would like to go for the X3700, but as I have high end speakers, i don't want it to be the weak point in my sound chain.

I think that is mostly not true, though in some cases it may be true. If you do your research, you may find it not so easy to find evidence that support "...for the price.....that a preamp specialized will have more quality components, better DAC......" In fact, you may find that in some cases the opposite is true.
 

Tagh_Azog

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I think that is mostly not true, though in some cases it may be true. If you do your research, you may find it not so easy to find evidence that support "...for the price.....that a preamp specialized will have more quality components, better DAC......" In fact, you may find that in some cases the opposite is true.
And about the amplifier, using X3700H as Preamp?
 

HarmonicTHD

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I don't understand what you are talking about ca db THD, i don't see at all how a integrated amp like X3700 would output enough power for 5 Focal Electra speakers compared to a dedicated amp like MCH K38 or MCX...
Also i don't want higher model because Amir reviews show them to be worse than X3700 and i don't need the extra channels. I just know the X3700 won't have enough power output for my 5 speakers especially if it is using some of its power for the preamplification stage already.

The idea with K38 was to bridge front lane to get double the power on my front and central speaker while my surround would get the normal power non bridged.
I tried to say that of course if you need the power and if you want external power amps than don’t go for the Nuprime. Because if you look at the few specs the manufacturer published (and who knows how accurate that data is) you will find THD 0.01% (and that is even not considering it’s noise, which the manufacturer did not publish). Convert that to dB and then compare it to either the SINAD of the x3700 power amps (ca 90dB) or even to the ca 100dB of its preouts. So you have choosen an excellently measuring AVR just to feed its nice clean signal to a power amp which is several factors worse. Yes I have simplified a bit here and one can debate audibility. But as mentioned above there are much better power amp options at that price range.

(BTW. I also run separate power amps for the Kef ref 3, but I am very very hard pressed to hear a difference with or without the power amps (ca 360W, 112dB SINAD)).
 
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josefK666

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Are there video settings on the X3700H that one needs to make certain that one has set correctly for the best quality picture? I run everything through the x3700H, fire Stick 4K Plus, Apple TV 4K, ultra HD Blu-ray DVD, DirecTV... I believe there is a video bypass setting and I'm wondering if that is what everyone is using? Also, since all of my signals are going through the AVR first and only going out to the TV as the video signal, is there any need for eARC to be turned on? I don't think so but I'd love to get confirmation. For what it's worth my TV is the new Sony 65-in A95K.
I have the X3700 and the Sony A80J and I just set the Video Mode to bypass and let the TV do all video processing. The XR processor is one of the best out there and I wouldn't let any AVR try to handle that. And no, in your situation I can't see any use for enabling eARC.
 

dlaloum

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As for the Nuprime amp. A quick google got me the manufacturer specs of ca 80dB THD. That is ca 10dB worse as the combined performance THD plus N of the x3700 built in power amps (ca 90dB THDpN or SINAD ). So you would spent money to worsen the situation independently if it is audible or not.

So either use the built in power amps of the X3700 or if you need more power go for a bigger x model. Eg 4700 or higher.

Or if your heart is set on additional power amps look into the Hypex/Purify based amps from eg Audiophonics etc.
Or if money is no concern go for the Benchmark AHB2.

Also remember you don’t need much power for your surrounds and might use the built in amps. Center and the two mains take most of the power.
There are plenty of classic AB amps of the 80's / 90's with THD circa 70db which sound fabulous...

eg: Quad 606/707/909, Nakamichi/Threshold Stasis, Krell KSA250 - by THD / SINAD measurements these would be ranked poor - yet they subjectively and objectively (they have been involved in double blind tests at various times) - perform excellently... why?

The threshold of audibility for THD is somewhere around 60db... you can double blind test amps with 110db SINAD vs amps with 70db SINAD - and assuming that they are running within their operational parameters (ie: not driving speakers with impedances outside the amps ratings) - they all sound the same.

The key thing is that "operational parameter envelope" - external amps, typically have much larger power supplies per channel - more current is available - so when you hit a difficult speaker (eg: one with a woofer/crossover that drops impedance below 3 ohm) - they keep on going - where pretty much all AVR's run out of "puff" (current) and start to sound messy / congested, soundstage collapses etc.... (from personal experience!).

It is NOT about "Power" but about Current - a 140W@8ohm amp that shuts down when trying to drive a 3ohm load is a more "powerful" amp, than a 50W @ 8 ohm amp, which can happily drive a 1 ohm load....

In a perfect world, an amp should be able to double down into halving loads... ie: a 100W @8 ohm amp should be 200W @4ohm 400W@2ohm 800W@1ohm...... reality is somewhat less than perfect, and high current amps tend to provide something like 100W8ohm-170W4ohm-250W2ohm-375W1ohm. - the vast majority of amps cannot do this - no AVR amp that I know of can do this.

So if you have easy to drive 8 ohm speakers - with no crossover or driver driven impedance dips at any frequency - then your AVR will drive the speakers just fine - no benefit to be gained from an external amp.

But if (as I do) you have speakers where the impedance drops from 8 ohm to 3ohm on the woofer, and down to 1.6ohm on the tweeter... then an AVR is not going to be able to drive the speakers well - the impact is highly audible - even at mild SPL levels (highly audible at 72db at MLP in my setup).

Basically you need an amp that can maintain its required Voltage levels for the desired SPL's (average AND peak) - at all the impedances that your speakers throw at it... and as long as that amp has a SINAD of better than 60db (or circa 0.1% THD worst case) - you are golden!

Is it "better" to have a higher SINAD - yes absolutely... is it "better" to have a car capable of 250mph .... maybe, but would you really want a Bugatti Veyron to go do your shopping with?
And are you willing to pay the price of a Bugatti, when what you really need is a VW Golf?

I needed more power/current than the AVR provided - so I used a pair of Crown XLS2500's - SINAD measure in the mid 70's - power ratings = 440W@8ohm, 775W@4ohm, 1200W@2ohm, and just as importantly - rated to handle 1 ohm loads.... they sound a heck of a lot better than the AVR amps on their own.
(Mind you, I also tried out my Quad 606 amps, 135W@8ohm, 175W@4ohm, 90W@2ohm ... unconditionally stable into any load - did not sound quite as good as the Crowns... but a heck of a lot better than the AVR... in a double blind, might not be able to tell the difference with the Crown at lower/standard SPL's, difference may be potentially audible at higher SPL's.... maybe)
 

dlaloum

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My x3700 quite easily drives 5 KEFs with the LCR at 87dB/2.83/1m and a minimum impedance of 3.2 Ohms. And I like it loud. I think your Focals have a higher sensitivity too. You might be surprised what the X3700 can give you on its own…..
Being able to drive them is not the issue - what happens to the sound quality when you are doing that may be the issue... when the power supply starts to run out of current, the voltage can sag... average levels stay the same (SPL) - but the soundstage can start to collapse, details becomes harder to hear, and they can start to sound "congested".

Have you done a comparison with a high current external amp on the L/C/R ?
 

N1ck

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How annoying…and still no confirmation on the dacs or how they actually perform?
 

HarmonicTHD

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There are plenty of classic AB amps of the 80's / 90's with THD circa 70db which sound fabulous...

eg: Quad 606/707/909, Nakamichi/Threshold Stasis, Krell KSA250 - by THD / SINAD measurements these would be ranked poor - yet they subjectively and objectively (they have been involved in double blind tests at various times) - perform excellently... why?

The threshold of audibility for THD is somewhere around 60db... you can double blind test amps with 110db SINAD vs amps with 70db SINAD - and assuming that they are running within their operational parameters (ie: not driving speakers with impedances outside the amps ratings) - they all sound the same.

The key thing is that "operational parameter envelope" - external amps, typically have much larger power supplies per channel - more current is available - so when you hit a difficult speaker (eg: one with a woofer/crossover that drops impedance below 3 ohm) - they keep on going - where pretty much all AVR's run out of "puff" (current) and start to sound messy / congested, soundstage collapses etc.... (from personal experience!).

It is NOT about "Power" but about Current - a 140W@8ohm amp that shuts down when trying to drive a 3ohm load is a more "powerful" amp, than a 50W @ 8 ohm amp, which can happily drive a 1 ohm load....

In a perfect world, an amp should be able to double down into halving loads... ie: a 100W @8 ohm amp should be 200W @4ohm 400W@2ohm 800W@1ohm...... reality is somewhat less than perfect, and high current amps tend to provide something like 100W8ohm-170W4ohm-250W2ohm-375W1ohm. - the vast majority of amps cannot do this - no AVR amp that I know of can do this.

So if you have easy to drive 8 ohm speakers - with no crossover or driver driven impedance dips at any frequency - then your AVR will drive the speakers just fine - no benefit to be gained from an external amp.

But if (as I do) you have speakers where the impedance drops from 8 ohm to 3ohm on the woofer, and down to 1.6ohm on the tweeter... then an AVR is not going to be able to drive the speakers well - the impact is highly audible - even at mild SPL levels (highly audible at 72db at MLP in my setup).

Basically you need an amp that can maintain its required Voltage levels for the desired SPL's (average AND peak) - at all the impedances that your speakers throw at it... and as long as that amp has a SINAD of better than 60db (or circa 0.1% THD worst case) - you are golden!

Is it "better" to have a higher SINAD - yes absolutely... is it "better" to have a car capable of 250mph .... maybe, but would you really want a Bugatti Veyron to go do your shopping with?
And are you willing to pay the price of a Bugatti, when what you really need is a VW Golf?

I needed more power/current than the AVR provided - so I used a pair of Crown XLS2500's - SINAD measure in the mid 70's - power ratings = 440W@8ohm, 775W@4ohm, 1200W@2ohm, and just as importantly - rated to handle 1 ohm loads.... they sound a heck of a lot better than the AVR amps on their own.
(Mind you, I also tried out my Quad 606 amps, 135W@8ohm, 175W@4ohm, 90W@2ohm ... unconditionally stable into any load - did not sound quite as good as the Crowns... but a heck of a lot better than the AVR... in a double blind, might not be able to tell the difference with the Crown at lower/standard SPL's, difference may be potentially audible at higher SPL's.... maybe)
I know, that’s why I wrote “independently of audiability” and why I have power amps.
Question is what the OP wants and needs.
 

josefK666

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Being able to drive them is not the issue - what happens to the sound quality when you are doing that may be the issue... when the power supply starts to run out of current, the voltage can sag... average levels stay the same (SPL) - but the soundstage can start to collapse, details becomes harder to hear, and they can start to sound "congested".

Have you done a comparison with a high current external amp on the L/C/R ?
I have not tried an external amp no so I can’t say I’ve ever done any A/B testing but ultimately I haven’t ever felt the need – soundstage and detail sound great to me with my R3’s (though having a subwoofer may help there obviously). I have also heard many stories of people being honest enough to say that an additional power amp has made no difference to their overall sound at all – obviously circumstances differ greatly. More power may well be something I look at in the future but probably it will be part of a new feature-set rather than the driving reason behind an upgrade itself. I can’t afford to power one at the moment anyway :)

I suppose the point of my original comment was that the O/P should try the x3700 anyway before leaping in to buy a supporting amp first – he might be surprised. Incidentally, it’s widely believed that Denon will announce their new line-up of AVRs (or at least their main new model) in the next few weeks. That could be of interest too and may also see the prices of the old ones start to come down at last………
 
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