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Marantz Cinema 50 vs Marantz SR8015
- Thread starter Descartes
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Why would they sound different? Likely measurements are close but ASR has only the 8015 that I can see, don't see anyone has measured the Cinema 50 yet....
I'd just pick the one that has the features you want at the best price you can find....maybe compare this way https://www.zkelectronics.com/compare/marantz-cinema-50/marantz-sr8015/
I'd just pick the one that has the features you want at the best price you can find....maybe compare this way https://www.zkelectronics.com/compare/marantz-cinema-50/marantz-sr8015/
ArturoKiwi
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Marantz Cinema 50 AVR Review
My Friends C50 and I don't know the price of this item. You can see what I saw. This is what it looks like. 4ohm, optical in, front LR, 20k 4ohm, optical in, front LR, 22.4k 4ohm, optical in, front LR, 40k 4ohm, rca in, front LR, 20k 4ohm, rca in, front LR, 22.4k 4ohm, rca...
www.audiosciencereview.com
You could find here a review af Cinema 50
Hi the 8015 likely measures better in regards to SINAD. I owned one a few years back—hence it is an older generation. The 50 will be relatively future proof with HDMI 2.1 plus if you ever decide to use it as a prepro you can disconnect individual channels from the internal amplifiers. This will reduce heat, reduce demand on power supply and shunt more power to remaining internal amps if you decide to do say LCR with external amps. You cannot do that with the 8015. You will also likely not be able to distinguish audibly between the two. So go for which options you desire most.
If based on specs and measurements mainly, then I would go with the 50 in Europe, but the Denon x3800h or x4800h if in NA, because the price premium for Marantz is much higher in the US and Canada. The 8015 would be great if you don't ever want to try DL, and don't need HDMI 2.1, 4 independent subouts and preamp mode.
I see a lot of people writing that there is no Pre Amp mode in the SR8015. Is that for sure?
I have an SR7015 an if I set 11.1 at Amp Assign, I can run the internal AMPS for 7.0 and use external for the 4 Atmos speakers. I used to use ext. amp for the 6. and 7. channels and the 2 Atmos channels and it worked perfectly
If I select Pre Amp mode, then only the Pre Outs are operational.
If I look at the manual below, I can see the Pre Amp mode mentioned there aswell:
Amp Assign SR8015
May you please confirm? I am also thinking of buying the SR8015 (due to Amir's review about the nice pre amp voltages), but I might also benefit of the 4 independent sub outs and DIRAC functions of the Cinema 40. However, if there really is no pre amp mode in the 8015, that would be a dealbreaker for me.
The SR8015 has preamp mode, but it is limited to all or none, edit: so like the SR7015, so it will only work if you don't use any of the build in power amps.I see a lot of people writing that there is no Pre Amp mode in the SR8015. Is that for sure?
I have an SR7015 an if I set 11.1 at Amp Assign, I can run the internal AMPS for 7.0 and use external for the 4 Atmos speakers. I used to use ext. amp for the 6. and 7. channels and the 2 Atmos channels and it worked perfectly
If I select Pre Amp mode, then only the Pre Outs are operational.
If I look at the manual below, I can see the Pre Amp mode mentioned there aswell:
Amp Assign SR8015
manuals.marantz.com
May you please confirm? I am also thinking of buying the SR8015 (due to Amir's review about the nice pre amp voltages), but I might also benefit of the 4 independent sub outs and DIRAC functions of the Cinema 40. However, if there really is no pre amp mode in the 8015, that would be a dealbreaker for me.
The C40's preamp mode is flexible, it allows you to disconnect any or all of the build in amps.
If you are going to use external power amps only, the SR8015's preamp mode will be just as good. Regardless, why would it be a deal breaker, are you concern about power consumption? If it is about sound quality, preamp mode or not makes no difference, not for the 8015.
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I would not buy the 3800 based on the DAC. Can't avoid the DAC with surround, which is the whole point of buying an AVR. But the 4800 is essentially a sibling of the Marantz.
I really like the design of this range of Denon/Marantz and the option of putting channels on an external amp. For me its high value compared to a high end surround processor.
Karls_speaker_works
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They all (3800/4800/40/50) use the same DAC.
It does work for the 7015 that way. I am having the 7.0 channels connected to the Marantz internal amp and using an Emotiva BasX A4 for the Atmos speakers, through the Pre Amp section at the moment (Amp Assign is set to 11.1 and NOT to Pre Amp mode).
Honestly speaking, I used to have a Sherbourn PA 7-150 connected to the 7015 pre outs for the 7.0 channels + Emotiva for the 4 Atmos channels, and used to use the Marantz in Full Pre Amp mode, but I had to take the Sherbourn amp to the service and connected the 7.0 to the Marantz, to not to miss the home cinema, and it sounds just as great as with the external amp, so I am now thinking of either let the Sherbourn and 7015 go and upgrade to a 8015 (while still using my Emotiva for the 4 Atmos channels), or just let the 7015 go and upgrade to a Cinema 40 and use that in a full pre amp mode. However, if the situation is true that the 8015 can't be used in a mixed mode (7.0 through internal amp and 4 Atmos speakers through the Emotiva), unlike the 7015 which is essentially being now used this way (7.0 through internal amp and 4 Atmos speakers through the Emotiva), then it makes no sense to switch to 8015, as I have to keep my external amps (Sherbourn and Emotiva) for the 11 channels anyway, and so the Cinema 40 would be a better choice.
All implementations of the same chipset are not equal. Some guy named Amirm measures actual performance. The 3800 fell off reviewers recommendation lists when it was generally considered compromised by supply chain shortages. I would have ungraded from my 3600 for HDMI 2.1, but I'm not interested in 11.2 channels of mediocrity.
Having the same DAC doesn't mean same sonic performance. For example, Marantz SR7015 and Anthem AVM60 use the same DAC. Do they sound the same? Absolutely not. Owned them both. Anthem had a lot better positioning of effects.
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You can use it in "mixed mode" if you mean using some internal amps, but you cannot select preamp mode, because if you do, you cannot use the internal amps since in preamp mode, all the internal amps are disconnected from the pre outs.
I am not really sure what you are trying to do, it seems to me there is no issue with the 7015 now, so there shouldn't be any issue with the 8015 as the preamp mode and the amp assign modes of the two units work in the same way. Except that the SR8015's pre out has much lower distortions whether it is in preamp mode or not, as found by Gene in his review.
He said:
Marantz SR8015 11CH 8K DTS:X Pro AV Receiver Review
The Marantz SR8015 11.2CH Atmos/DTS:X Pro HDMI 2.1 AV receiver is built on a very solid platform with benchmark measured performance. Is this the best AVR for 2020? Read our review to find out.
stupidvillager
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Dont think the DAC has much bearing on positioning of effects.
Yes, that is rather the job of the processor, but it still means that having the same DACs in devices, doesn't mean that they would sonically be identical.
Ok, so the situation is the following.You can use it in "mixed mode" if you mean using some internal amps, but you cannot select preamp mode, because if you do, you cannot use the internal amps since in preamp mode, all the internal amps are disconnected from the pre outs.
I am not really sure what you are trying to do, it seems to me there is no issue with the 7015 now, so there shouldn't be any issue with the 8015 as the preamp mode and the amp assign modes of the two units work in the same way. Except that the SR8015's pre out has much lower distortions whether it is in preamp mode or not, as found by Gene in his review.
He said:
Marantz SR8015 11CH 8K DTS:X Pro AV Receiver Review
The Marantz SR8015 11.2CH Atmos/DTS:X Pro HDMI 2.1 AV receiver is built on a very solid platform with benchmark measured performance. Is this the best AVR for 2020? Read our review to find out.www.audioholics.com
The setup with the 7015 used to be, while using it in FULL PREAMP MODE:
7.0 (FL, C, FR, SL, SR, SBL, SBR) through the pre amp section, using external amplifier (Sherbourn PA 7-150)
4 Atmos (TML, TMR, TRR, TRL) through the pre amp section, using external amplivier (Emotiva BasX A4)
I have read earlier the review of Amir of the SR7015, and saw that even with the Full Pre Amp mode engaged, the optimal max Pre Out output is around 0.7 volts. I have checked the Sherbourn's gain and counted that I would max. at 100W per channel if I give it a 0.7 v signal (the amp is capable of delivering 150W 8 ohm per channel at 1.2 V signal).
Now that I had to remove the Sherbourn temporarily out from the equation (as it had to be taken to the service), I have connected the 7.0 channels into the Marantz directly and left the 4 Atmos speakers being amplified by the Emotiva, and set the Marantz to 11.1, instead of Full Pre Amp mode.
As it almost sounds identical now (with Marantz "mixed mode", using partially the internal amp), I have been thinking if I should go for the 8015 for more power and just keep the Emotiva for the 4 Atmos speakers. I have read in the other review of Amir of the SR8015, that it has a stable 2.0 v output through the pre amps with Full Preamp Mode engaded. Therefore, if I put the Sherbourn back into the system it will properly be fed by the SR8015. BUT I have been thinking of getting rid of the Sherbourn totally and just using the 8015 in mixed mode (exactly the same way how the 7015 is now being used) and so I can get more power from the 8015's Toroidal power supply for the 7.0.
If however I can't use the 8015 in mixed mode, and so I have to keep the Sherbourn anyway for the 7.0, then although I can feed it with a stronger signal with full preamp mode from the 8015, I think I would better be buying a Cinema 40, that in theory has a better pre amp stage aswell than the 7015, and it is also cheaper than the 8015.
As an aside, I really like how some of the Topping amps have a variable gain setting and multiple inputs. These power amps are well designed for AVR integration and easily allowing a second mode in a surround system that eliminates the AVR when listening to stereo.
Aadmittedly there may be little to gain in eliminating a good AVR if the front speakers are easy to drive. But I seem attracted to inefficient speakers.
Aadmittedly there may be little to gain in eliminating a good AVR if the front speakers are easy to drive. But I seem attracted to inefficient speakers.
0.7 V, 100 W is about right, but at 1.2 V, it will output about 285 W, the 150 W you cited is probably for all 7 channels driven simultaneously and even then it is the rated output specified by Sherboun, the calculated value should be about 285 W, with 1.2 V input. It probably could do even >300 W on short term, or transients at a little higher distortions.
If you do a blind test, I bet 5 to 1, you will not be able to guess right more than say, 12 out of 20 times no matter how hard to try.
I thought I've already explained that those AVRs can output a lot more than 2 V (read the related specs and measurements, such as the vol IC, opa datasheets instead of internet hearsay), how high it could go depends on how much distortions you can live with, the maximum value, that is, before clipping (say, define that as either 0.1 or 1% THD as most reviewers do) of about 4 V, say 3.7 to 4.5 V depending on the test conditions. You are going to read a lot of stuff on the internet, so I understand why your have such questions, or doubts, you came to the right place though,
here you will get more opinions, and some often include backup information to support their claims/opinions.Couple of points: 1) You have the Sherborn already, why not keep it? In case your power need changes in the future such as upgrading speakers, increasing your seating distance, and/or you want to listen much louder than you do now then the Sherbourn's additonal reserve will be there for you. 2) Forget about the toroidal thing, at the level of your very nice AVRs such as the 7015, even 6015, EI or toroidal is not important, each design has their pros and cons. The output power is a function of the VA rating of the transformer, not its geometric shape of E-I, toroid, or something else. Don't fall for those hypes. You will get more power reserve from the 8015, but not because its transformer is toroidal. In practical term, the difference in max outputs between the 7015 and 8015 is very marginal, you will not be able to hear a difference as in dB term, it will be less than 1 (about 0.8) dB, think in terms of a couple of clicks (not even) on the volume button will more than account for the difference in decibel level you hear.
I think you are right, while the 8015 has much better build quality, but if your goal is functionality and/or sound quality related, the C40 is better. All those copper plates, additional shielding, toroidal transformer, better HDAM version etc., don't mean anything in terms of sound quality; and perhaps some legacy connections, that are of course totally useless if you don't use them. The C40's additional subout features, DL options, and the more up to date DSP chips are things that matter to sound quality for sure, depending on your particular applications. The 8015 does have an advantage in terms of the DAC IC, but that's only if you can get one that is manufactured before the shortage after the AKM factory fire, the newer oness will all have the same DAC IC that the C40 has. In fact, if your 7015 is the earlier version that has the original AKM dac, such as the one Amir tested, then it should perform better on paper than the 8015 and the C40, but on paper only as I highly doubt humans can hear the difference just because one has a few dB higher SINAD.
Now back to the misconception you seem to have with Amir's graphs and comments, if you are ocd (like me and many others) about pre out SINAD vs output, then you should focus on the graphs that Amir typically inclued (can't thank you enough for going the extra mile, unlike some other reviewers), and forget what you need about those references/comments based on a single point, such as THD+N at 1 V, 2 V etc.
So, let's take a look:
In non-preamp mode, the 7015's SINAD is about 90 dB at below 0.3 V, and about 75 dB at just over 2 V, it will likely be around 65 to 70 dB even at 4 V if you extend the curve, or refer to the Denon AVR-X6700H, that Amir measured it to over 4 V.
The 0.7 V, as Amir commented, is only "optimal" because it is the peak within the range of 0 to the clipping point. Amir did refer to "clipping" at the 1.4 to 1.5 V but that's because he called it "clip", when he saw SINAD started to drop much quicker at that point. I disagree with him, but he's boss. I know I am right, or at least in the practical sense, and I have explained my rational a couple time, obviously those posts have since been buried among the thousands of ASR posts, whereas Amir's comments will stick forever, and many would undoubtedly be misled unless they dig deep...
Amir only measured those AVRs pass 4 V once (or twice, maybe), so those who wonder how high can the D+M unit's pre out will go before clipping, should value the one he did on the Denon X6700H:
All those AVRs have the same DAC and volume IC, and in some case OPA buffer, inlcuding Marantz's HDAMs, so you can expect very similar pre out limit:
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Thanks a million for the input.0.7 V, 100 W is about right, but at 1.2 V, it will output about 285 W, the 150 W you cited is probably for all 7 channels driven simultaneously and even then it is the rated output specified by Sherboun, the calculated value should be about 285 W, with 1.2 V input. It probably could do even >300 W on short term, or transients at a little higher distortions.
If you do a blind test, I bet 5 to 1, you will not be able to guess right more than say, 12 out of 20 times no matter how hard to try.
I thought I've already explained that those AVRs can output a lot more than 2 V (read the related specs and measurements, such as the vol IC, opa datasheets instead of internet hearsay), how high it could go depends on how much distortions you can live with, the maximum value, that is, before clipping (say, define that as either 0.1 or 1% THD as most reviewers do) of about 4 V, say 3.7 to 4.5 V depending on the test conditions. You are going to read a lot of stuff on the internet, so I understand why your have such questions, or doubts, you came to the right place though,
...
I think the thing that puzzled me is what Amir wrote:
"We see that the optimal output level is around 0.7 volts which is quite low. If you are buying an external amplifier make sure its sensitive is no higher than 0.7 dB or you will suffer from degradation of the internal DAC and buffer stage in SR7015." I was under the impression, that if I push the 7015 above volume 73 (in full pre amp mode or "mixed mode"), then I start to feed the amp with a clipping signal which would probably be inaudible for my ears but could harm my speakers on a long term.
Indeed my 7015 is from the new batch where the end of the serial number is above 70000, (ones before had the famous HDMI board issue), so I don't think it has the AKM DAC unfortunately, but the ESS Sabre one (or the TI one). I could only confirm it if I opened the lid, but I would rather not
.Sherbourn claimed that the amp can output 150W at 8 Ohm, all channels driven. Funny thing, is that I hardly ever pushed the volume above 65
.I have 2 JBL Synthesis LS80, LS Center, 2 LS40, and 2 JBL Synthesis Studio 530 for Back surrounds. Planning to upgrade to the JBL Synthesis HDI series or the M&K 950 series. The trick with them is that they are rated at 4 Ohm, which would surely require the Sherbourn to not to cook the Marantz. The other thing is that I have an SVS SB4000, but thinking of adding one more, or switch to 4 smaller ones. That is where the Cinema 40 comes into the picture with the 4 independent sub outs and DIRAC, although I can also buy a MiniDSP for the optimal customization of 4 subs, if I keep the 7015 (which already has 2 independent sub outs).
So all in all, the real upgrade here would be the Cinema 40, and even if I switch to the 8015, it won't be better sonically than the 7015, even if I use it in full preamp or trying to go the "mixed mode" way. I thought I could benefit from the higher output of the pre amp with the 8015 or at least have more power and headroom with the 8015 if I use it's internal amps partially, which would probably give me more headroom and improve the dynamics, but it would rather then be a step aside than a step forward with the 8015, right?
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