Looking for a worthwhile upgrade from Genelec 8030c

[Chromatischism]

Go for corrections only at the fundamental room resonances. In a normal rectangular room there are only three. You can calculate just measuring your room to do it. No need for measurements with mic. Those fundamental room-resonances are totaly independent of where you have put your loudspeakers- its all depending on the room dimensions.

Dont try to compensate for reflections above 80 Hz .
Do you have to much bass in the area 80-500 Hz - use shelving filter instead of correcting reflection peaks. Its called bass-tilt on Genelec.

I dont want to be rude by asking, but I guess that you know the difference between fundamental resonances in a room ( depending only on the room dimensions ) and reflections ( depending on loudspeaker placement in the room, listening position and the distance from loudspeaker to walls, floor, roof ) ?

With speakers like this, I disagree from experience. My iLoud MTM's (and everyone else's speakers on a desk) will have a midrange bloom and other issues due to the desk bounce. EQ made a huge difference for the better. It's worth experimenting. I use Room EQ Wizard, a UMIK-1, Equalizer APO and PEACE. EQ was designed based on the moving mic RTA measurement, not just a single point in space.

Red = EQ Off
Blue = EQ On

 

[Chromatischism]

I am also skeptical on implementing glm as dr. Toole in this forum stressed that glm target response is flat which would make the speaker tilted upright anechoically. If ever i get higher genelec models i probably would not use glm.

Wouldn't that be for nearfield use though? Nearfield response should be flat.

 

[YSC]

although there are quite some nasty looking dips I doubt you it will be very noticeable, since ther peaks and dips are very high Q and in real music it shouldn't sound bad, and that the overall elevated peaks in bass region were like 6db louder only which should actually sounded pleasing albeit a bit bass heavy

 

[Tangband]

This is great to know. That means i dont have to upgrade to the 83x0 series cause the 8030 gets loud enough. What do you think of the 8341 or the 8331 and the neumannn 310a compared to the 8030c ? What do you think about the preference ratings ? The genelec 8030c rates higher. Are they not an accurate representative of guality once you hit a certain rating threshold ? I find it somewhat unbelievable that a speaker in a lower series rates higher than that of a higher series especially in science based companies like genelec, neumann, harman and the like.

The Genelec 8030c is the best loudspeaker I have heard at that price. It would be very hard to upgrade the sound and not pay much more. I have done listening tests with Revel 105M, and in my opinion the sound is better from 8030c.

I use Genelec 8340 with GLM ( for the three fundamental room-resonances ) doing just three compensations, ( 71 Hz, 44 Hz and 31 Hz ) and without subwoofers.

I dont think the sound is much better from 8340 vs 8030c. They sound the same, but 8340 goes 10 Hz deeper in the bass and can play louder when used as full range.

I havent heard the 8341, but I guess they are even better.

 

[Tangband]

No. I do not know about fundamental room resonances. I also don't understand shelving filter. You are not being rude. In fact I appreciate being able to learn. Thanks! Can you enlighten me? It is close to one boundary just the side walls. I tried using the bass -4db dip switches on the genelec and I get better measurements with using rew and autoeq below 200 hz then import the filters in minidsp than the -4db bass switch.

The two pictures shows reflections ( big picture ) and the three fundamental room resonances ( small picture ).
As you can see, the fundamental room resonances are totaly independent of the loudspeaker placement.

When you try to correct for room reflections, higher than 80 Hz , the result will be worse than without correction if you move listening position 30 cm . The reflections starting from the loudspeakers, bouncing on the walls and arriving at the listener is dependent on the placement of the loudspeakers, the distance from the walls, floor and ceiling, and the listeningposition.

 

[Tangband]

About correcting reflections:

The frequency thats needed to be corrected when there is reflections involved , will change, if listening position is changed, or loudspeaker placement is changed.

example: the mic at listening position shows a peak from a wall-reflection at 180 Hz . You correct it with dsp.
Then you move listening position by 30 cm , then do the messurements again and you suddenly see that the frequency that needs correction is changed, maybe to 171 Hz or 192 Hz .
The sound will be worse with correction everywhere else than in exact sweet-spot.
—————
Now to fundamental room resonances.

When correcting for the three fundamental room-resonances - the result will be good everywhere in the room because its the rooms geometry thats have been corrected. The frequencys thats in need of correction will be the same. A rectangular room has three fundamental resonances , the highest in frequency is almost always the roof/floor resonance- because its the shortest distance. The other two are wall-to-wall resonances.

If you measure the distance between the floor and the roof , you can calculate the frequency thats gonna need correction.
speed of sound is 343 m/s in room temperature.
If the distance from floor to roof is 240 cm , you can count like this:

343/240/2 = 0,714 = 71,4 Hz.


Edit: the brain expect a certain roomgain because you also listen with your eyes, so correcting room resonances as much as the mic says, gonna sound thin and bad.
My experience- when the mic shows a room resonance peak at 10 dB, you should not correct for 10 dB, but maybe 5 dB.

 

[dshreter]

I am also skeptical on implementing glm as dr. Toole in this forum stressed that glm target response is flat which would make the speaker tilted upright anechoically. If ever i get higher genelec models i probably would not use glm.

I believe you can specify a darker target response if desired using the Sound Character Profiler.

“The Sound Character Profiler (SCP) can be accessed via the ‘Group Presets’ menu item ‘Sound Character Profiler’. If you feel the overall spectral balance of your system needs adjustment, i.e. making the sound generally darker or brighter, the Sound Character Profiler found in the Group pull-down menu is a quick place to start. The settings in the Sound Character Profiler will affect all monitors and subwoofers in the current Group“

 

[Trell]

I am also skeptical on implementing glm as dr. Toole in this forum stressed that glm target response is flat which would make the speaker tilted upright anechoically. If ever i get higher genelec models i probably would not use glm.

Do you have a link to Tooles post stating this about GLM? A quick googling on ASR did not find it.

GLM 4, which is the only version I've used, generally limits corrections from mids and below on my two system in an office. I can then apply a shelf filter for high frequencies, which I do.

 

[theshade]

With speakers like this, I disagree from experience. My iLoud MTM's (and everyone else's speakers on a desk) will have a midrange bloom and other issues due to the desk bounce. EQ made a huge difference for the better. It's worth experimenting. I use Room EQ Wizard, a UMIK-1, Equalizer APO and PEACE. EQ was designed based on the moving mic RTA measurement, not just a single point in space.

Red = EQ Off
Blue = EQ On

View attachment 143787

I don't use them on a desk. I also used rew before and equalized up to 600hz. However since reading parts of sound reproduction by Dr. Toole I have now equalized up to 300hz. I hope that is below my transition frequency cause I do not know how to determine it. To be safe I could equalize below 200hz but there are massive ripples in my measurements in the 200 to 300hz region. I moved my speakers 1 foot away from me during this thread. I will post measurements later.

 

[theshade]

Wouldn't that be for nearfield use though? Nearfield response should be flat.

I get tilted up measurements that people have commented would sound bright. I moved my speakers farther from me by about a foot. I will post measurements later.

 

[theshade]

although there are quite some nasty looking dips I doubt you it will be very noticeable, since ther peaks and dips are very high Q and in real music it shouldn't sound bad, and that the overall elevated peaks in bass region were like 6db louder only which should actually sounded pleasing albeit a bit bass heavy

I hope it isnt noticeable and that the brain could listen through the room. I want to know my transition frequency though so I could safely equalize below it.

 

[theshade]

The Genelec 8030c is the best loudspeaker I have heard at that price. It would be very hard to upgrade the sound and not pay much more. I have done listening tests with Revel 105M, and in my opinion the sound is better from 8030c.

I use Genelec 8340 with GLM ( for the three fundamental room-resonances ) doing just three compensations, ( 71 Hz, 44 Hz and 31 Hz ) and without subwoofers.

I dont think the sound is much better from 8340 vs 8030c. They sound the same, but 8340 goes 10 Hz deeper in the bass and can play louder when used as full range.

I havent heard the 8341, but I guess they are even better.

Thanks a lot! It is nice knowing that they basically sound the same except for extension and maximum loudness. You are saving me a lot of money.

 

[AnalogSteph]

On the subject of room modes, REW has a nice "room simulator" that lets you play with speaker and listening positions in all 3 dimensions and see what the frequency response is doing, so you can get a decent feel for how things behave. You obviously need to set room size correctly, and slight adjustment of speed of sound and wall reflectivity may be required to match measurements more closely.

Acoustic treatment for the whole spectrum is likely to involve at least 3 different kinds of acoustic elements - you can get the mids and highs under control with foam panels fairly easily, the lower mids are likely to involve wannabe foam "bass traps" for the corners, and addressing the real bass may involve the odd roll of rock wool.

Transition frequency is dependent on room size and wall reflectivity, i.e. level of acoustic treatment.

For starters it is probably best to leave the range >500 Hz alone altogether, or just apply known fixes for irregularities of the anechoic response derived from trustworthy measurements like Amir's. This assumes that the speakers can be kept well away from most surfaces (not like the ones at my parents' computer that are tucked away halfway behind the monitor, those required a bit more EQ...).

 

[theshade]

The two pictures shows reflections ( big picture ) and the three fundamental room resonances ( small picture ).
As you can see, the fundamental room resonances are totaly independent of the loudspeaker placement.

When you try to correct for room reflections, higher than 80 Hz , the result will be worse than without correction if you move listening position 30 cm . The reflections starting from the loudspeakers, bouncing on the walls and arriving at the listener is dependent on the placement of the loudspeakers, the distance from the walls, floor and ceiling, and the listeningposition. View attachment 143811View attachment 143812

You are right even small movements of the speakers greatly changed the measurements. Before I settled on the nearfield one that I previously posted I did measurements for 18 different positions. I did not choose the best measurements position cause I like the sound of the nearfield one but due to this thread I have placed it back to somewhat midfield 6 feet away from me. I will post both measurements to compare. I should not eq above 80 hz? Can you tell based on my measurements what my transition frequency is? Thanks

 

[theshade]

About correcting reflections:

The frequency thats needed to be corrected when there is reflections involved , will change, if listening position is changed, or loudspeaker placement is changed.

example: the mic at listening position shows a peak from a wall-reflection at 180 Hz . You correct it with dsp.
Then you move listening position by 30 cm , then do the messurements again and you suddenly see that the frequency that needs correction is changed, maybe to 171 Hz or 192 Hz .
The sound will be worse with correction everywhere else than in exact sweet-spot.
—————
Now to fundamental room resonances.

When correcting for the three fundamental room-resonances - the result will be good everywhere in the room because its the rooms geometry thats have been corrected. The frequencys thats in need of correction will be the same. A rectangular room has three fundamental resonances , the highest in frequency is almost always the roof/floor resonance- because its the shortest distance. The other two are wall-to-wall resonances.

If you measure the distance between the floor and the roof , you can calculate the frequency thats gonna need correction.
speed of sound is 343 m/s in room temperature.
If the distance from floor to roof is 240 cm , you can count like this:

343/240/2 = 0,714 = 71,4 Hz.


Edit: the brain expect a certain roomgain because you also listen with your eyes, so correcting room resonances as much as the mic says, gonna sound thin and bad.
My experience- when the mic shows a room resonance peak at 10 dB, you should not correct for 10 dB, but maybe 5 dB.

Yup the dips and peaks are moving even with small changes in loudspeaker position. So for the sidewalls I need to do 343/width/2?

 

[theshade]

I believe you can specify a darker target response if desired using the Sound Character Profiler.

“The Sound Character Profiler (SCP) can be accessed via the ‘Group Presets’ menu item ‘Sound Character Profiler’. If you feel the overall spectral balance of your system needs adjustment, i.e. making the sound generally darker or brighter, the Sound Character Profiler found in the Group pull-down menu is a quick place to start. The settings in the Sound Character Profiler will affect all monitors and subwoofers in the current Group“

Nice to know. I do not have GLM though.

 

[theshade]

Do you have a link to Tooles post stating this about GLM? A quick googling on ASR did not find it.

GLM 4, which is the only version I've used, generally limits corrections from mids and below on my two system in an office. I can then apply a shelf filter for high frequencies, which I do.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...nelec-on-audio-science.3110/page-7#post-79872

 

[theshade]

I moved the speaker about a foot away from me as I got comments that it may sound bright from the measurements. Here are the measurements.

left speaker- different distances. range of the distance due to recliner tilt

right speaker- different distances. range of the distance due to recliner tilt

left speaker

right speaker

comparing left and right

left with auto eq no boosts 50 to 300hz leveled at 76.4db

right with auto eq no boosts 50 to 300hz leveled at 76.4db

left before and after auto eq no boosts 50 to 300hz leveled at 76.4db

right before and after auto eq no boosts 50 to 300hz leveled at 76.4db

 

[Trell]

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...nelec-on-audio-science.3110/page-7#post-79872

Thanks for the link. The current GLM 4.1 released a few weeks ago still targets a flattish bass, and Genelec has caved in a little by allowing a slight bass-tilt as well as boosting a few PEQ slightly (depending on monitor/subwoofer capability) compared to GLM 4.0.

I'm using the RME ADI-2 DAC FS and the dynamic loudness feature for added bass at lower listening levels. The DAC even has tone control knobs for quick adjustments.

 

[Trell]

I believe you can specify a darker target response if desired using the Sound Character Profiler.

“The Sound Character Profiler (SCP) can be accessed via the ‘Group Presets’ menu item ‘Sound Character Profiler’. If you feel the overall spectral balance of your system needs adjustment, i.e. making the sound generally darker or brighter, the Sound Character Profiler found in the Group pull-down menu is a quick place to start. The settings in the Sound Character Profiler will affect all monitors and subwoofers in the current Group“

With GLM 4.1 released a few weeks ago it's now possible to have a positive bass tilt, similar as for treble. That can be handy.