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Klipsch RP-600M Speaker Review

edechamps

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I have added the Klipsch RP-600M to Loudspeaker Explorer where it can be compared to other speakers.

The listening window is a bit eyebrow-raising, as the speaker is not symmetric on the horizontal axis. Highs roll off way faster at positive horizontal angles, compared to negative horizontal angles. This is perplexing. In any case this speaker fails to present a consistent response within the listening window in the treble.

visualization(30).png

visualization(31).png
 
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ctrl

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napilopez said:
What's weird about it?
Is the phase curve normal? Never seen it before, though to be fair I haven't seen many.

If a measurement is performed "correctly" ("dual-channel measurement"), the phase frequency response provides some information.
It shows the filter order at the crossover frequency and if the crossover frequency is known, you can estimate how good the phase position is at the crossover frequency.

The Klipsch measurement taken at hometheaterhifi.com is not quite optimal. However, you can see a 360° phase shift near the crossover frequency, which suggests a fourth order filter. Or is it just 270° phase shift, which would correspond to a third-order filter - hard to tell.

It looks a bit "wild" due to the missing gate (which would fade out the reflections) and the phase seems to be shifted a bit to low frequencies.

From: https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/speaker/bookshelf/klipsch-rp-600m-loudspeaker-review/

1584689085094.png


Correctly measured, you can read out a bit more information and as a developer you get more feedback about the quality of the development.

[off-topic]
As an example here the frequency and phase response of a 2-way bookshelf speaker which should show a low tuned BR frequency of third order Quasi-Butterworth and was separated at 1.6 kHz with fourth order LR.
1584692849946.png

In the low frequencies we expect a phase shift of about 270° due to the quasi third order Butterworth roll-off - check.
Around the crossover frequency we expect a phase shift of 360° due to the fourth order filter - check.


Most of the reviews that I have read/viewed mention that these speakers present a sound stage seemingly originating from up-close, as opposed to coming from the actual distance of the speakers, or even behind the speakers. Is this a thing (is this something that can be read from the measurements) or is this more about room and positioning or just subjective-review quackery?
As others have said, it probably has to do with the narrow radiation pattern.

However, the directional bands according to Blauert should also play a role.
In the median plane the perception of direction is determined by certain frequency bands.

If the sound level of a sound source positioned at the front in one of these bands is raised in relation to other frequency ranges, the auditory system can use this to determine whether the sound is coming virtually from the front, from above or from behind.

vorn = front, hinten = back, oben = top
1584695047432.png

Unfortunately I did not find an english wikipedia entry.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blauertsche_Bänder

So if the sound pressure is reduced in the median plane in the 1-2kHz range and the 3-5kHz range is emphasized, then the perception of direction tends to push the music up-close .
1584695162052.png


This can be further enhanced in the horizontal plane by manipulating the same frequency bands as the directional perception in the median plane.
The perception of direction "from the front" (median plane) becomes in the horizontal plane a sound that is present, close, direct, superficial.
This can be achieved by raising the frequencies 300 to 600 Hz and 3 to 5 kHz and lowering frequencies by 800-2000 Hz.
1584696384564.png

So the Klipsch's listening impressions fit quite well with the directional bands of Blauert.
 
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QMuse

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I have added the Klipsch RP-600M to Loudspeaker Explorer where it can be compared to other speakers.

The listening window is a bit eyebrow-raising, as the speaker is not symmetric on the horizontal axis. Highs roll off way faster at positive horizontal angles, compared to negative horizontal angles. This is perplexing. In any case this speaker fails to present a consistent response within the listening window in the treble.

View attachment 55116
View attachment 55117

But up to app 15kHz it seems fine, right? Or am I missing something?
 

tuga

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Odd that is gets so many rave reviews, I understand that some folks will like and prefer this sound (I mean Klipsch knows how to make it sound however they want)

Someone will come along and say that Science show the opposite, that people are not supposed to prefer this sound. Bonkers.
 

Jon AA

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Also, where the biggest surprise lies in the sound change is with the speaker tube connectors that are included in the crossover upgrade kit. Since the speaker tube connector feature is more of "direct wire" contact, it has less contact points than the factory binding posts and yes, the sound change can be heard in the review.
Could you direct me to some before/after measurements he has published of the tube connectors that change the sound so much? It must show up pretty dramatically in the measurements if it changes the sound that much. Right?
 

Jon AA

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Someone will come along and say that Science show the opposite, that people are not supposed to prefer this sound. Bonkers.
Nope, not at all. I believe all the reviewers who rave about the sound. All those who picked out that sound as what they like in a double blind test. I'm still looking for some.....
 

tuga

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Nope, not at all. I believe all the reviewers who rave about the sound. All those who picked out that sound as what they like in a double blind test. I'm still looking for some.....

In a double blind test in an unfamiliar room in mono probably with unfamiliar music?

But I think that we agree on two things: that bad/negative (professional) reviews are extremelly difficult to come by, and that these speakers are sub-par.
 
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tuga

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Wouldn't the impedance interaction with a high output-impedance valve amplifier somewhat "compensate" for the on-axis dip at 2kHz, whilst simultaneously increasing the treble and creating other problems in the bass?

index.php
 

QMuse

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I have added the Klipsch RP-600M to Loudspeaker Explorer where it can be compared to other speakers.

The listening window is a bit eyebrow-raising, as the speaker is not symmetric on the horizontal axis. Highs roll off way faster at positive horizontal angles, compared to negative horizontal angles. This is perplexing. In any case this speaker fails to present a consistent response within the listening window in the treble.

View attachment 55116
View attachment 55117


There's one more thing I noticed although I don't have time to check it via your Loudspeaker Explorer:

It seems to me that practically every speaker that has been measured experiences a fall from 100Hz or so. Isn't that weird?

Klipsch RP-600M Bookshelf Speaker Spinorma CEA-2034 Audio Measurements.png
 

wje

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Could you direct me to some before/after measurements he has published of the tube connectors that change the sound so much? It must show up pretty dramatically in the measurements if it changes the sound that much. Right?

Hi. I don't have a link to any specific measurements when using the speaker connector tubes. Though, the sound can be heard in one of the reviews by New Record Day on YouTube. I was listening to the video, while commuting one day a few weeks back. In the review, he'd play a clip, then indicate what it was we had heard. To me, this was like a blind test. My guesses while listening to the sound were quite wrong when I'd hear the clip, then he'd reflect whether it was the stock version of the speaker or the one with the modified / replacement crossover. However, the sound tube clip had a noticeable change in the sound that could clearly be heard. The speaker tubes are about $40 or so a pair from GR Research. Might be worth considering when building a new pair of speakers or doing some extensive modifications on an existing pair of speakers.
 

Jon AA

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It seems to me that practically every speaker that has been measured experiences a fall from 100Hz or so. Isn't that weird?
Not for this speaker:

1584700641570.png


That's from Stereophile. If anything, they go more rolloff.
 

georgeT

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Could you direct me to some before/after measurements he has published of the tube connectors that change the sound so much? It must show up pretty dramatically in the measurements if it changes the sound that much. Right?

I don't understand how people can take him seriously with his tube connector nonsense.
 

Jon AA

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Might be worth considering when building a new pair of speakers or doing some extensive modifications on an existing pair of speakers.
Based on a Youtube Promo Video? No thanks. Measurements are needed if he wants such things to be taken seriously.
 
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wje

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Here's the link to the YouTube video where New Record Day plays clips of the unmodified, modified as well as the speakers when connected to the factory binding posts, as well as the speaker tube connectors.
 

wje

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Based on a Youtube Promo Video? No thanks. Measurements are needed if he wants such things to be taken seriously.

Yes, I understand your point. But, if you listen to the clips, you can hear. However, the measurement component is essential too - maybe, the speaker tubes are increasing the efficiency by a few decibels, which may be the difference in sound that is heard. Truly, yes, measurements are key - not just impressions of the reviewer on a YouTube channel. We've realized with all the great reviews Amir has conducted here, that there is a big difference between all the hype, marketing and costs behind a product vs. how it really performs on the test bench.
 

Jon AA

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I don't understand how people can take him seriously with his tube connector nonsense.
Don't forget, SandCast Resistors!!! They make the sound "gritty!" Like putting sand directly into your mouth. I'll certainly never use a crossover that has them. Oh, wait....
Yes, I understand your point. But, if you listen to the clips, you can hear.
I'm sure you can hear something on the video. But you have no idea how that video was made.
 

wje

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Don't forget, SandCast Resistors!!! They make the sound "gritty!" Like putting sand directly into your mouth. I'll certainly never use a crossover that has them. Oh, wait....
.

Quite a few speaker manufacturers use sand cast resistors in their crossover networks. Is it done because of cost? Possibly. But, when building a crossover network, I personally now tend to avoid them. When I had my previous pair of of Elac B6.2 speakers, I replaced one of the capacitors and two of the sand cast resistors with another type of resistor from Madisound. I wish I had the proper measuring equipment to have tested the before and then the after results of the $10 modification effort (minus the cost of shipping). Even the "famed" Buchardt S400 speakers @ $1,900 a pair have sand cast resistors. The speaker has received many great reviews, with some testing data being provided - but none to the degree that our famed reviewer, Amir would have been able to provide. Admittedly, I should digress from posting - lots of work this week and the 4 hours of sleep per night is hampering with my thought and response process. Just 8 or 9 more hours to go, then freedom! :cool:
 

Jon AA

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Quite a few speaker manufacturers use sand cast resistors in their crossover networks. Is it done because of cost? Possibly. But, when building a crossover network, I personally now tend to avoid them.
I have no doubt there are better resistors. But when Revel is fine with them on a $4000 set of bookshelves:

RevelM126BeCrossover.jpg



I figure I've got bigger fish to fry.
 

Daverz

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Based on a Youtube Promo Video? No thanks. Measurements are needed if he wants such things to be taken seriously.

He does show some measurements with the new crossover in the first video I posted, though that doesn't show that the "better" resistors or the tube connectors are an audible improvement. With DIY, you can decide whether to indulge in those upgrades or not.
 
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maty

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I have verified that the Bennic cast resistors spoil the sound in my modded KEF Q100 a lot. The difference when changing them with Mills MRA was undoubted, and that I did the test with a single modifying loudspeaker compared to the other with the original resistance.

It is assumed, and Bennic so specifies, that the residual inductance is very low. Whatever the cause, the sound difference is undeniable.
 
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