Kind of rant regarding what speakers to buy, environmentalism etc.

[rubenkemp]

Thanks for the all the feedback! It seems the America's have awakened, judging from the amount of replies. I'll try to respond to everyone. The ordering might be a bit all over the place but I tried to group the answers thematically.

I was specifically thinking of them
True confession -- I like Crutchfield. They're not cheap, but their service & support are (still) extremely good. They're one of the ideal resources for folks starting out or just not interested in the minutiae of home enterntainment electronics.

Too bad I live in the EU. Thomann is quite well regarded, though, and I have the luck of being in a city with at least 2 good audio-stores.

Can't comment on your speaker selections, but your commendable environmental idealism is refreshing, and perhaps a little misplaced.

I'm as environmentally conscious as the next guy, probably moreso having enjoyed the great natural beauty of where I live and in our travels all over the US. We drive hybrids. We reduce, recycle and reuse. We swapped out all our lighting for LEDs. We have energy efficient appliances and HVAC.

There's a point of diminishing returns, though. Hifi might be one of them. Or any consumer product, really. There's the whole rabbit hole you could go down researching the raw materials used in a speaker's construction, sourcing, sustainability, etc., the manufacturer's energy efficiency, energy cost of shipping and delivery, etc., not to mention fair labor and human rights questions up and down the supply chain.

So, you could weigh all that as one factor or the main factor in your evaluation. Or, you could just buy speakers that sound good within your budget. As has been noted, nobody buys their last speakers until they do. Until then, when you move on to the next pair you can repurpose them or sell them, with the satisfaction of knowing that the materials, labor, and energy used to make them are conserved and they are kept out of the landfill.

Sorry, just the ramblings of an old guy who sometimes feels like he's done about all he could do to be responsible and wish others would, too. And you are, so good for you. Give yourself permission to reward yourself without any guilt or regrets just this one time.

I've tried going down the rabbit hole for other parts of consumerist life before, but it's impossible for many items. Simplicity and common sense seem to do it for me, together with reading labels, especially for food. I have come to an agreement with myself about never procreating because of how bad humans have made the situation thus far (I agree with @oivavoi and @Wes ), I could only imagine the world 20 or 30 years from now.

OK, I'll bite!


Good luck in your quest, a ton of factors come in play but entertaining to get it all working the way you desire.

Thanks to you and @SKBubba for the elaborate responses. I don't know anything about speaker production but I would assume that a more efficient driver is also more difficult to manufacture, requiring more material, man hours and energy (just like with electric cars, the waste needs to be taken into account as well). Like with anything eco-related, efficiency of mass produced products sometimes is beneficial to Earth. Organically grown chicken has a higher CO2 output than factory farmed chicken... At the same time, at some point energy needs to be fully sustainable so if we have not reached that point in a couple of decades, what will happen? I somewhat believe in accelerationism, but it quickly becomes a mess. Might be something for a different forum though.

Goes for @mhardy6647 : I would like to keep them on my desk for now and not be the same size as my wardrobe, with a dedicated audioroom I would definitely go for horns or maybe . Maybe one day if I live on a shed in the fields with no neighbours or housemates behind uninsulated plasterboard.


Generally speaking I would avoid active speakers for the exact reasons mentioned above, but the same can be said about parts for amps, dacs and the speakers themselves.

I would definitely prefer second hand, but especially newer products like the Kef R3 or the Elac DBR62's are not available widely second hand (yet).

For all the people responding to go for the buy new & try option, sure and surely from other speaker manufacturers, thanks, I'll take a good look at the speaker review index. I'm quite sad there aren't any Dynaudio's that were tested well enough plus the charts from other sites all tell the same thing: they just can't do it right, for whatever reason they are never 'neutral'. Some of the better sounding ones are more inefficient/sensitive than the R3's and Elac's... Luckily I don't want to feel the bass or fill the room to the point where I feel like I am at a concert. Clarity is my main goal.

Without getting into any of the environmental aspects.

Best advice is listen to as many different speakers as you possibly can. I know it can be hard with all the lockdowns and all. However you need to find a way to do it. Spend a month at the least. Go to friends, friends of friends, travel to local nearby cities or towns if you need to.
Peoples taste on different speakers and sound signatures differ wildly. What one guy loves, you make hate, and vice a versa.

That's great advice. I have some nice audiostores in the region, which have started to open up with appointments, so that's good. Thanks for stressing that, I sometimes focus too much on numbers, reviews and random opinions.

 

[rubenkemp]

Last salvo...

Speakers are the weakest link of an audio system. They are magnitude less transparent than electronics and are very, inefficient , intrinsically. A speaker translate into acoustic power (what you hear) about 1% of the electrical power it receives, the rest is simply lost ...
These said, there is an objective reality: There are measurements that allow the informed, to know how a given speaker is likely to perform. Very smart people here have compiled the measurements and derived from them some preference ratings. The speakers, I mentioned are among the top, these speakers tend to reproduce a better replica of the electrical signal sent to them, in a variety of rooms and conditions. Not a matter of magic rather of applied Science, of technology. Some brands are often cited here : Genelec, Neumann, JBL, Kef, Revel. I , emphasis on "I" have only heard good words about the reliability of Genelec or Neumann, they seem to last and a very long time... These companies produce many active speakers and to me that is the best way to get my music,. True!, passive speakers due to the electronics being outside, are more reparable but... absent a back-up amplifier if your amps fail, you are left with no music on your speakers
New electronics are more reliable than we credit them for... OTOH some electronics are so inexpensive that it is often more economical to buy a new one than repairing a failed one ... To make the choice even more difficult: Performances are at a level so high in some electronics that a $25 DAC is virtually transparent...

... so it is a matter of balance.

Personal anecdote: I bought , thanks to ASR the JDS Labs Atom at $100 and the Khadas Tone Board a $100, they replace a slew of "audiophile" DACs and headphone amplifiers... One of the DAC I held as my reference cost, new, more than $5000, ... The Atom will drive low or high impedance at ear destroying levels... with utter control and vanishing THD, it will also drive the most sensitive IEM with no hiss... It also is a preamp that maintains the same qualities when driving a power amplifier.. All that for $100 and consuming less than 6 watts at full power. WHat's there not to love? As for the Khadas Toneboard, it is among the top performers for DAC here at ASR ...

Peace

A 10$ apple dac would do it for most people, but I dont think this is the right forum for most people. You have got to think about where the music is coming from as well. The RME barely hits 10 watts with like 10 times the possibilities being done in the box, without having to things on the source.

Regarding the balance. It is true, all things in life consume other things. We cannot just simply sit in a chair and breathe forever. Well, some of us can, but for me that is not living. I worry not so much about the money, which can be replaced, I worry about the lifespan of a product. For that reason, I am not going with cheaper options like Topping. I am 100% sure they are a decent company and judging from the direct communication between the company and this forum, they care about audio and customers, but I have doubts on the lifespan. Silly, I know. Somehow I think that if I buy a ''German'' made RME Dac/amp (would be 1200 USD, whereas the JDS Labs Atom is not available, though equivalents exist, same goes for the Khadas, but that is available for ~160$) the support is better, warranty is not something I have to worry about. It is my neighbouring country after all. You might say, ship it from the US, to which I would say that is completely fair, but ahhhhhh. Biases are a difficult thing.

To all people in the thread I would like to point out this reaction from an RME employee regarding where their products are/were made. It boggles the mind. A forum post from 2014:
''
Re: Engineered and designed in Germany, but manufactured... Where?
It's not that easy. The PCB with all components on it, means the BF in itself, is manufactured in Germany, tested here, and then shipped to RME Hong Kong. There it is assembled with the China-made housing, packed and sent out to the world.

Now does that make it 'Made in Germany'? Not really. And does it make it 'made in China'? Not really either. Your choice...
''

Employee 2:
''
Most of German North Sea shrimp is being shipped in huge truckloads to Morocco for peeling and back to Germany for processing and marketing... Things are eeven worse in the clothing sector, with stuff being shipped about internationally for individual steps of the manufacturing process... Compared to these, the BF (Babyface Dac) is a very moderate example of globalization. And you'll find other examples with a "designed/engineered in..." badge, even when the product is entirely manufactured in China or so...
Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME
''
The fact that they are honest about this hits a soft spot of mine. Supposedly they now produce more parts in Germany but there is less transparency, judging by what I could find.

 

[krott5333]

I think the stuff you put in your face greatly outweighs anything you'll ever buy for recreational use when it comes to carbon footprint[...]

A really easy way to substantially reduce one's carbon footprint is to go vegan.

*backs away slowly after opening potential can of worms*

 

[rubenkemp]

A really easy way to substantially reduce one's carbon footprint is to go vegan.

*backs away slowly after opening potential can of worms*

If only the meat-lobby and their habit-eating (cult)-based following would allow for cultivated/cultured meat to become big.

 

[Absolute]

A really easy way to substantially reduce one's carbon footprint is to go vegan.

*backs away slowly after opening potential can of worms*

The best way to change people's habits is to make their habits socially frowned upon. It takes a few years, but it's highly effective.
But the incentive needs to be strong enough for the masses to convert.

I think most people don't care whether the meat is artificial, lab grown, from the neighbors cat or a colored plant. As long as it tastes good and is cheap enough.

People who complain but offers no solution to their problems have no value. Most environmentalists are in this group, so here's a drink for the incoming shitshow we call climate change that we won't be able to stop due to too much complaining and not enough real action

*Unfortunately I have no interest in people, how the world goes or whatever happens. Otherwise I would fix it for y'all.*

 

[krott5333]

People who complain but offers no solution to their problems have no value.

I don't eat animal products and don't litter. That's about the extent of my environmental friendliness. Sometimes I'll pick up other peoples' litter, like if I'm on a trail in the woods. Those are my occasional "going above and beyond" moments.

 

[Juhazi]

https://www.genelec.com/raw

"The natural finish of RAW models requires no painting and less finishing material. This creates an even more environmentally friendly loudspeaker that allows the pure beauty of the enclosure’s recycled aluminium to shine through – and makes every speaker unique."

All Genelecs are made in Finland, but naturally most components come from aboard. They are well designed, well enegineered and will last for centuries. Retail value is very good too, but used market is almost non-existent because most people keep small ones in another room or give them to kids etc.

 

[krott5333]

https://www.genelec.com/raw

"The natural finish of RAW models requires no painting and less finishing material. This creates an even more environmentally friendly loudspeaker that allows the pure beauty of the enclosure’s recycled aluminium to shine through – and makes every speaker unique."

All Genelecs are made in Finland, but naturally most components come from aboard. They are well designed, well enegineered and will last for centuries. Retail value is very good too, but used market is almost non-existent because most people keep small ones in another room or give them to kids etc.

That's a good way to look at things. A lot of cheaper speakers use cheap mdf and paper laminate that just won't last all the long. My next speaker I'm going to think of something with longevity.

 

[rdenney]

I interpret the question as a rant against buying stuff that is designed for permanence and then throwing it away as if it is disposable.

(And I do see that all the time. On the home-improvement shows--many of which are produced in Canada, by the way--where the 20-something young wife takes one look at the granite countertops that the older previous owner paid $10,000 for and thought would last a hundred years, and says, "yuck! I like quartz! That will have to go immediately!")

I bought a pair of New Advent Loudspeakers in 1977. I deactivated them from active use last week (thought I do have future plans for them). I bought a pair of Linn Index Plus speakers in maybe 1990, and they are still in use (as the fronts on a home-theater setup). The surround speakers in that system I bought in 2003, along with the subwoofer. The cheapie Alesis Monitor One speakers still I use for my upstairs office were new in maybe 1994--I bought them for monitoring duties in an electronic keyboard setup. So, I think speakers can last a very long time, and do not need to be disposable at all. Same with electronics--I still use the Kenwood integrated amp I bought with those Advents in 1977, and much of what I use every day was made 15-30 years ago. Mind you, maintenance is needed. I have replaced the foam surrounds in those Advents twice, and replaced a tweeter once. And I replaced the capacitors, too.

Whether a person suffers from upgrade-itis or not is entirely up to them.

But it's one reason I keep the fast-changing digital stuff separate from the basic electronics and speakers. I bought a Bluetooth integrated amp, and six months later deactivated it because the Bluetooth it supported became an old version. Since then, I buy inexpensive Bluetooth DACs and don't have to replace a nice amp because the digital standard improved. In my main system, I'm using amps made a dozen years ago, a preamp from the early 90's, a CD player from 2002, and speakers from 2010, given or take a couple of years. Those were all made when electronics had crossed the threshold away from remaining audible distortions. Stuff has gotten better since then, but I can't hear the improvements. My digital stuff in that system (DACs, ADC, etc.) is all much newer. That the state of the art in digital sound is now inexpensive really helps. That flies in the face of modern minimalist style, which wants few boxes connected by vastly fat cables, but I can't help that.

Final point: Most things people throw away are not because they are broken and unrepairable. They get tossed because those items no longer fulfill their requirements, or they no longer meet aesthetic requirements. Stuff bought with flexibility in mind run into the first reason more rarely.

Rick "who hates throwing good stuff away" Denney

 

[Head_Unit]

I don't know anything about speaker production but I would assume that a more efficient driver is also more difficult to manufacture, requiring more material, man hours and energy

Well as a loudspeaker engineer let me say NO fortunately. Or at least not inherently so. I suppose a more efficient woofer will tend to use more magnetic material, but that can also be true of less efficient models. I would say that the individual production factories and their environmental practices would be much much more effect on the environment than the design of the speaker.

As for your original example, $1600 should buy you significantly better speakers than $500. My vague rule of thumb is if you spend 3X the $$$ the speakers should pretty much be of a better overall sound quality. (Of course they might not fit individual taste!). So actually the best eco-way would be along @rdenny 's line: spend as much as you can to get something you really love then just keep those.

 

[rubenkemp]

Well as a loudspeaker engineer let me say NO fortunately. Or at least not inherently so. I suppose a more efficient woofer will tend to use more magnetic material, but that can also be true of less efficient models. I would say that the individual production factories and their environmental practices would be much much more effect on the environment than the design of the speaker.

As for your original example, $1600 should buy you significantly better speakers than $500. My vague rule of thumb is if you spend 3X the $$$ the speakers should pretty much be of a better overall sound quality. (Of course they might not fit individual taste!). So actually the best eco-way would be along @rdenny 's line: spend as much as you can to get something you really love then just keep those.

Thanks for joining in. I definitely agree with your general rule of thumb, though the cheaper speakers of those two measure remarkably well. I suspect there would be some corners cut somewhere, and it could very well be the conditions the thing is produced in, though Elac is quite a respectable brand I'd say.

I've got an appointment set where I will listen to them side by side, so I will report back! From the sound demo's on YouTube the only thing I have been able to tell so far is that despite the excellent measurements, the R3's seem a bit too shrill/bright in upper midrage to high range, which have shown up in the measurements done by Amirm.

@Juhazi I fully agree with you, and the casings for the Genelecs seem like they will last longer than many MDF-veneer combo's, especially in humid climates. Them being active makes me a bit scared though. Maybe I will try to find somewhere to listen to them as well, thanks. The looks would definitely be something to get used to. I plan on indeed either reusing speakers when I eventually upgrade/sidegrade by selling them or putting them in a different setup. I am conflicted in that, same for PC-hardware and some other gadgets. Whatever you buy, buy the right thing and then accept them. Difficult in a capitalist system that has companies fighting for attention.

@rdenney I hate those programmes. I hate waste, I hate consumerism (though we are all consumers; what is necessary consumption?) and to some extent humanity itself for everything it is doing.

@Absolute even though I fear for the future for those exact reasons, I am enrolled in a programme that will hopefully teach me how to implement possible solutions to issues. In addition to what you said about the action not being there: the sciences are and have been very clear for decades. ''We need to act now'' is a station we have long passed. We needed action in the 1970s, preferably a population halt in the 1870s. I wonder if species in other universes are as (un)lucky as we are to see a planet go back to when it was created within a couple of hundred thousand years since the dominant species were introduced. Out of curiosity, what is your approach to life? Are you slightly fatalist/nihilist and somewhat hedonistic because of the helplessness of the situation we have created or are you still caring, deep inside?

 

[brimble]

A really easy way to substantially reduce one's carbon footprint is to go vegan.

*backs away slowly after opening potential can of worms*

You've got my vote.

 

[Absolute]

I wonder if species in other universes are as (un)lucky as we are to see a planet go back to when it was created within a couple of hundred thousand years since the dominant species were introduced.

Given the timeframe of the universe and our little blipp of time in it, as well as the sheer size of it and the likelyhood of many more like it, I'd bet all your money that there's absolutely nothing special about us.

There's likely no outcome or scenario we as a species can encounter that hasn't happened many many times throughout history of time.
We're literally made out of the most common ingredients in the universe with absolutely nothing special or spicy about us, so thinking our form of carbon-based life is the absolute best the universe can offer is a strange and narcissistic thought to me.

The small size/capacity of our brain is a fundamental thing to point out. If we can create brains million times smarter than us (computers, AI), imagine what could be done with 100 times the brainpower per individual.

Out of curiosity, what is your approach to life?

Breathe. That's all there is to it.

I like Neil Degrasse Tyson's excellent quote;

We are the universe observing itself from within.

Technically 100% correct, spiritually very relaxing.

Are you slightly fatalist/nihilist and somewhat hedonistic because of the helplessness of the situation we have created or are you still caring, deep inside?

I'm not nihilistic in the sense that I see no meaning in trying to do something. But I'm nihilistic in the sense that I see no meaning in doing anything else than what needs to be done.

 

[rubenkemp]

@Head_Unit A quick update:

so far I have listened to the Elac DBR62, the KEF R3, the KEF LS50 Meta and the Totem Skylight (the shop owner threw them in to compare). Quite different speakers. My very subjective listening experience with way too many variables to my liking made me prefer the Elacs. Somehow, the bass in the KEF R3 made the upper to higher mids blurry, which is a problem for 'busy' music such as progressive metal and jazz. Excuse me for not knowing more jargon at this point. It may have been the setup, but I even preferred the LS50 meta.

I listened to the KEF R500 as well (different room, different amp/streamer...), and I would have to listen to them again. They seemed to produce something inbetween the DBR62 and the R3's. Bass seemed more subtle.

I am now planning on visiting other stores to give floorstanders a try and I will probably try the DBR62 and Genelec 8030c in my room. The speakers I have on my watchlist are Dynaudio special 40 (just to try), the Revel m16 and then for something totally different to compare to the R500's, Dynaudio Evoke 30 and the Dali Opticon 8.

Any general tips that I might have missed whilst reading the backlogs of the beginners guides? I am working on changing my entire room setup to obviously get it to the best possible scenario for speakers: making use of the rectangular room. It's still in SketchUp at the moment so maybe I will post an updated picture for that and after further impressions.

 

[AnalogSteph]

[...] but I even preferred the LS50's.

Mind you, the LS50 Meta should be anything but bad to begin with...

 

[rubenkemp]

Mind you, the LS50 Meta should be anything but bad to begin with...

Might have been the room then. They seemed less bright than the R3's, which is good, while having less bass, which is obvious because of the woofer/cabinet design, yet hey sounded 'worse' for both the lower and midrange.

 

[Jim Matthews]

You mentioned this is your first home on your own?

Keep things small, and they will be easy to move as needed.

I would recommend the Epos ES12 if you're buying secondhand to keep things out of the landfill and minding your costs. It's a design which uses a full range bass transducer with no crossover components. The tweeter has only a capacitor in series.

If you're looking to buy a mature product with an eye to holding it several years the JBL 708 is a quality product. The (i) version will allow you to use your own amplification, the (more expensive) powered version uses low power consumption integernal class D amplification.

 

[drfous]

So is there a carbon credit for trading in inefficient speakers for more efficient horn loaded speakers?

 

[okok]

impossible, men need new toys forever

 

[rubenkemp]

Update:

I am currently trying the Genelec 8030c (the raw one indeed, @Juhazi why are the raw aluminium more expensive than the painted???) with an RME Adi-2 dac. My short first impressions.

I tried the 8040b's first but found them too big. Compared to the 8030's their bass was indeed better, but too overwhelming. I don't want to be a douche to my housemates, like the girl upstairs with a subwoofer, who does not care about others... I have tried orienting the room differently but the picture shown at the start of the thread is preferred over that, causing all sorts of reflections to happen. Over the next few days (weeks) I will experiment with EQ's.

I think I can be happy with these for a long time given the huge amount of tweaking that can be done.
@Jim Matthews indeed, though it is not a small room (volume is approximately 80m3, hence the 8040). It is not that I do not trust you or this forum, but the only way I could listen to the Epos before buying would be to buy them from German Ebay. I do plan on widening my view by listening to a couple more speakers.

The only thing I am slightly disappointed in is the audible hiss when up close and at low volumes, but apparently only very few active speakers can achieve near silence.

If I could make the room work better, I would have probably settled with the kef r500's or similar floorstanding speakers.