Kind of rant regarding what speakers to buy, environmentalism etc.

[rubenkemp]

Hello everyone, have been lurking this website for the past months. I just moved into my new place, first time living on my own yada yada yada.

To get to the point, I am hesitant in buying speakers.
In order to not increase my carbon/ecological footprint exponentially, buy one pair of speakers that are great allrounders and spend money only once...

... the main questions would be:

• If I were to buy 1 pair of speakers for the rest of my life (presumably not but it's hypothetical), would it be the:

1. Kef R3's (roughly 1600 euro's)
2. or Elac DBR62's (roughly 500 euro's)
3. Other options? More money? Less money?

• Given the room, generally speaking, should I buy looking at acoustic treatment? All walls are plasterboard, the floor has carpet, the ceiling is not solid either (think it is some sort of OSB).

I would pair either of these up with a good class D amp and an RME ADI-2 DAC for ''futureproofing'' and headphone-driving capabilities.

The size/layout of the room is a bit of an issue, so the dimensional difference of these two pairs of speakers is going to have quite a big effect, I imagine.
If you would argue not to buy speakers until I move to a better/dedicated room I am fine with that too, then I would focus on headphones for now.

Excuse my quick MS Paint-skills.
Thanks in advance

Massive edit: would have been smart of me to include actual dimensions of the room. Fixed the image. ~27 square meters (290sq. ft). 3.4 meters (11.1 ft.) (!) in height.

 

[Absolute]

I think the stuff you put in your face greatly outweighs anything you'll ever buy for recreational use when it comes to carbon footprint, so drop your shoulders and try something that you think will make you happy for awhile.
Expect to sell it because you'll be interested in trying different stuff after awhile for whatever reason. Again and again.

Start with something ok, like the Elac, or go for something good, like Kef (after EQ based on anechoic measurement) and relax.
It might be plenty good enough for you or it might not.

If you're easily pleased I'd try something like the Elac first and go from there.

Buying speakers now that you'll keep forever isn't going to happen unless you're not that interested in the audiophile part. Hifi is very eco-friendly if you don't eat too much while doing it.

Yes, I'm saying fat people are eco-hazards!

 

[rubenkemp]

I think the stuff you put in your face greatly outweighs anything you'll ever buy for recreational use when it comes to carbon footprint, so drop your shoulders and try something that you think will make you happy for awhile.
Expect to sell it because you'll be interested in trying different stuff after awhile for whatever reason. Again and again.

Start with something ok, like the Elac, or go for something good, like Kef (after EQ based on anechoic measurement) and relax.
It might be plenty good enough for you or it might not.

If you're easily pleased I'd try something like the Elac first and go from there.

Buying speakers now that you'll keep forever isn't going to happen unless you're not that interested in the audiophile part. Hifi is very eco-friendly if you don't eat too much while doing it.

Yes, I'm saying fat people are eco-hazards!

Fat people are an everything-hazard, mostly to themselves. Good thing I'm a skinny fella then

Kidding aside, I mentioned the eco/carbon footprint mainly because of the trash-production that comes in with anything gadget-related. Like with most nice hobbies, sacrifices need to be made. At that point it becomes somewhat of a moral question of how relatively bad I am doing compared to others that don't care. The two pairs of speakers I mentioned were maybe more hinting at 'How long am I going to be happy with speakers that cost X as compared to speakers that cost Y amount'. At the same time, I don't really care for the price as long as it is a solid product, quality and of course audio wise.

Would you by any chance have any experience with these speakers?

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

Looks like you will be listening from your desk ... a lot, thus nearfield.

$1500

Neuman KH 120 or Genelec 8030C about $1400/pair
JDS Labs Atom ........................................................$100
Topping D10S ........................................................... $100

No amp to bother with; easy set-up. The Genelec has been tested at ASR and is superlative in the nearfield. Used as headphones amplifier, the JDS Labs Atom will drive the most power hungry headphones with ease and is one of the best headphones amplifier on the market, regardless of price, the (rare) exceptions would be headphones largely out of the budget for your entire system (HiFiMan HE6, $1800, HEDD-phones, >$3000 ....).
Genelec are Class D... I believe so are the Neumann ...

 

[q3cpma]

The KH120A is class AB, the newer KH80DSP is class D. From an environmentalist point of view, I'd say reliability is the most important part.

 

[SKBubba]

Can't comment on your speaker selections, but your commendable environmental idealism is refreshing, and perhaps a little misplaced.

I'm as environmentally conscious as the next guy, probably moreso having enjoyed the great natural beauty of where I live and in our travels all over the US. We drive hybrids. We reduce, recycle and reuse. We swapped out all our lighting for LEDs. We have energy efficient appliances and HVAC.

There's a point of diminishing returns, though. Hifi might be one of them. Or any consumer product, really. There's the whole rabbit hole you could go down researching the raw materials used in a speaker's construction, sourcing, sustainability, etc., the manufacturer's energy efficiency, energy cost of shipping and delivery, etc., not to mention fair labor and human rights questions up and down the supply chain.

So, you could weigh all that as one factor or the main factor in your evaluation. Or, you could just buy speakers that sound good within your budget. As has been noted, nobody buys their last speakers until they do. Until then, when you move on to the next pair you can repurpose them or sell them, with the satisfaction of knowing that the materials, labor, and energy used to make them are conserved and they are kept out of the landfill.

Sorry, just the ramblings of an old guy who sometimes feels like he's done about all he could do to be responsible and wishes others would, too. And you are, so good for you. Give yourself permission to reward yourself without any guilt or regrets just this one time.

 

[Midwest Blade]

A pair of active speakers/monitors that could serve both of your listening positions. Looks like they will need to fit onto your desktop next to the monitor. Plenty of good options on the market or by looking through the reviews, many can be ordered on line, check for return policy in case something really does not work. Good luck.

 

[Absolute]

Fat people are an everything-hazard, mostly to themselves. Good thing I'm a skinny fella then

Kidding aside, I mentioned the eco/carbon footprint mainly because of the trash-production that comes in with anything gadget-related. Like with most nice hobbies, sacrifices need to be made. At that point it becomes somewhat of a moral question of how relatively bad I am doing compared to others that don't care. The two pairs of speakers I mentioned were maybe more hinting at 'How long am I going to be happy with speakers that cost X as compared to speakers that cost Y amount'. At the same time, I don't really care for the price as long as it is a solid product, quality and of course audio wise.

Would you by any chance have any experience with these speakers?

In that case, don't buy active speakers with built-in amps. They will fail and when they do it's all trash. I have experience with the Kef R3, which I think is the best choice for several reasons;

It's coaxial meaning excellent dispersion in all directions, it's a well-known brand with high re-sell appeal, it's close to as good as you can get after EQ, it's three-way with low distortion and good power handling and it's big and ugly. Which means everyone will comment on it.

RME is of course overkill costing almost the same, but it's excellent and built to last. And have some eq points that will make the speakers great. You can find recommended eq points with the speakers measured here at ASR in some excellent dedicated thread made by legendary people.

Oh, you'll need acoustic panels on the wall behind your head in the couch, but those you can make yourself. Recommend at least 4 inches depth to provide broadband damping.

I'd buy it all used because of what you say aboot killing the polar bears and all.
It's been a long time since I've seen some here in Norway when I think aboot it..

All that said, budget is not for me to comment on. You may or may not get more for the same amount by going with something else.

 

[Wes]

your carbon/ecological footprint will be minimally affected by speaker purchases

To make a real difference:
if young, go into solid state physics or engineering
become an environmental lawyer
become a scientist in ecology, electrochemistry, atmospheric physics or chemistry

Other things:
contribute to env'l groups
endow a chair in one of the Group I areas at a university
don't drive your ICE car too much
don't have kids

 

[oivavoi]

I salute you and your environmental concern, OP! That said, I think that buying speakers and (used) electronics is not too important when it comes to environmental choices. I'm a fairly radical guy when it comes to eco living (vegetarian, doesn't own a car, stopped flying some years ago), and I don't feel too bad that I've had a few pair of speakers in the loop in the last years, some of them expensive and technologically advanced. We all need to allow ourselves some slack in some areas of life, and the hifi/audio sector is usually not seen considered as a major environmental culprit.

But if you want to be completely sure that you don't increase your carbon footprint, then the best choice is to buy used speakers and used electronics. If you don't like them - well, resell them, and no harm done. Good luck!

 

[RealityCheck18]

OK, I'll bite!

A teenager I know wanted a "solar powered PA system" you could say. Those are the most "eco friendly" of sound sysems since the first priority of the is to concerve very limited (and variable) power while providing the maximum SPL attainable. This means high, ultra-high efficiency across all componens of the system. Sure, you have Class D...of course but, the speaker efficiency is far, far, far more important so the pathetic consumer speakers were eliminated immediately. KEFs and Elacs demand 10 to 40 times the power to run so not going to happen.

He realized quickly that he would have to build the speakers he required, that was fine as he had opposing thumbs, built car audio systems without hurting himself and owned basic power tools Looked at several designs, measured out his specific ergonomics (place handles and box size to fit his frame) went with pro drivers with a pair of 2.5 way mains (101dB 1w/1m) that weighed around 25 kilo or so and fit his shoulder width no probem. Sure, they handled a ton of power but meant to be driven at 25 to around 200 watts max--efficiency was #1.

Went with 15" subs, four of them to boost efficiency and narrow enough for one person to carry. Very tall to allow a larger air space but narrow as possible and fairly shallow and around 30 kilo... Neo magnets to cut weight but not inexpensive by any means. He did the research on stout car amps that were the most efficient and with a 4 to 8 ohm load, would laugh at such a high impedance as they were rated to 1 or 2 ohms.

His solar pack was several KW/h, MPPT controllers, LiFePO4 packs at 12.8V nominal and when assisted by solar cells in the summer sun, he could go until far into the night at arouund 2 AM. Hey kept an eye on the current output display and that was his ruler to get it done correctly.

Was his system "eco-friendly"? Looking at 101dB one watt/one meter and class D amps using a battery power supply (no inverter losses) he did a very good job. Now multiply how many hours of use and how much power is needed with 101dB VS 85 to 87dB speakers. He is very happy with the speakers and uses them for hi-fi speakers during the week and uses the solar system during the spring/summer months around twice a month. Look at the cost of shipping large speakers half-way around the world as big boxes in even larger cardboard boxes with foam to protect them. He purchased around 5 or 6 sheets of plywood with no shipping materials and built the things. Sure, the drives had to be shipped around 300 miles but the amount of materials is far lower.

An older friend of mine wanted me to refurb some fully horn loaded speaker he bought used when he was a teenager (late 60's) Tore the horns completely down, resealed the wood, measured and built a much better and accurate crossover network and made them sound better. Those things were 103dB 1w/1m being fully horn loaded and I ran them on a 10 watt chip amp for entertainment...geez, those things were LOUD! Not the ultimate in sound quality, far from it but he liked them and still uses them to this day. Designed a subwoofer for him, used an 18" PA driver with a small Class D PA amp as it attempted to keep up. This guy is happy and has been using the same speakers for over 50 years and they still work (crossover needed to be changed though) Fully horn loaded meant the drivers were never exposed to UV from the sub and being so incredibly efficient, for home use he was fine with 25 to 75 watt per channel amps. Those speakers are in use at least 30 hours per week, now part of his HT system so multiply 30 X 52 weeks X 52 years.... He bought his second pair of speakers about two years ago, a pair of studio monitors for his other room that he hangs out in. The garage provides tunes via a silver boom box...

So if you want a lower carbon footprint, go with high efficiency speakers. Class AB amps are pigs, their efficiency is poor at less than 20% at lower power levels with Class D at 70 to 90% or higher at the same lower power levels. If you use air conditioning, lower heat produced will demand less power to cool down Class D. Even if you can't use very high efficiency speakers, be aware that a 91dB 1w/1m speaker uses 4 times less power than a 85dB 1w/1m speaker. The speakers I use are "large bookshelf" speakers (my wife would claim otherwise) but at 98dB 1w/1m they require very little power to get me into trouble.

The last thing is to avoid disposable products--a lot of audio gear won't have parts available to fix them (if you can fix them) in 10 years. Get devices that tend to run cooler to extend the life of the device, try to find products that are known for their reliability and don't beat them into the ground. I've had my very efficient speakers built up for 5 years now--I am content with their performance and they will be keepers.

Still looking for a programmable chip amp board, a 2.1 with DSP to make a "boom box" that runs on 18VDC 5Ah power tool batteries. Yeah, very limited in output power at around 20 watts into the 8/4 ohm speaker loads and maybe 40 wats for the 4 ohm sub but great as far as a carbon footprint goes!

For the most part, audio is a grossly inefficient beast that very low efficiency speakers, horrid Class A and tube amps are celebrated while everyone "needs" kilowatts of power even if they don't. After all, the "best" stuff burns more power at idle than all the LED lights in your house...the good stuff! You can get Class D amps, low power processors and high efficiency speakers but they tend to be more fringe products--that is changing slowly as the world changes. Think of the carbon footprint of record players! Ack!

Good luck in your quest, a ton of factors come in play but entertaining to get it all working the way you desire.

 

[SKBubba]

So if you want a lower carbon footprint, go with high efficiency speakers.

This. Big ass horn speakers for the win!

 

[mhardy6647]

This. Big ass horn speakers for the win!

Not to mention the fact that many of the components in mine were manufactured 50 or more years ago -- I don't feel the least bit guilty about them.

DSC_0938 (3) by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

 

[Slayer]

Without getting into any of the environmental aspects.

Best advice is listen to as many different speakers as you possibly can. I know it can be hard with all the lockdowns and all. However you need to find a way to do it. Spend a month at the least. Go to friends, friends of friends, travel to local nearby cities or towns if you need to.
Peoples taste on different speakers and sound signatures differ wildly. What one guy loves, you make hate, and vice a versa.

 

[mhardy6647]

^^^^ I would absolutely agree with the above, FWIW (and in all seriousness).

Plan B, in the modern era, would be (could be) to purchase under conditions that permit an extended in-home evaluation (e.g., 30 days) at a nominal net cost (including, of course, the cost/hassle of return shipping). Many vendors and quite a few small loudspeaker "manufacturers" offer such opportunities.

 

[SKBubba]

^^^^ I would absolutely agree with the above, FWIW (and in all seriousness).

Plan B, in the modern era, would be (could be) to purchase under conditions that permit an extended in-home evaluation (e.g., 30 days) at a nominal net cost (including, of course, the cost/hassle of return shipping). Many vendors and quite a few small loudspeaker "manufacturers" offer such opportunities.

Crutchfield has an excellent no BS audition/return policy.

 

[Ron Texas]

It's a lot more important to have electronics which go to sleep. The idea of buying a pair of speakers to last the rest of one's life seems a bit extreme, unless one is old and only has a few years of useable hearing left.

 

[mhardy6647]

Crutchfield has an excellent no BS audition/return policy.

I was specifically thinking of them
True confession -- I like Crutchfield. They're not cheap, but their service & support are (still) extremely good. They're one of the ideal resources for folks starting out or just not interested in the minutiae of home enterntainment electronics.

 

[SKBubba]

I was specifically thinking of them
True confession -- I like Crutchfield. They're not cheap, but their service & support are (still) extremely good. They're one of the ideal resources for folks starting out or just not interested in the minutiae of home enterntainment electronics.

Yes. You pay list, but you get what you pay for. Including full manufacturer warranty (unlike some gray market resellers). Their product writeups are useful, too, and mostly free of hype.

 

[FrantzM]

Last salvo...

Speakers are the weakest link of an audio system. They are magnitude less transparent than electronics and are very, inefficient , intrinsically. A speaker translate into acoustic power (what you hear) about 1% of the electrical power it receives, the rest is simply lost ...
These said, there is an objective reality: There are measurements that allow the informed, to know how a given speaker is likely to perform. Very smart people here have compiled the measurements and derived from them some preference ratings. The speakers, I mentioned are among the top, these speakers tend to reproduce a better replica of the electrical signal sent to them, in a variety of rooms and conditions. Not a matter of magic rather of applied Science, of technology. Some brands are often cited here : Genelec, Neumann, JBL, Kef, Revel. I , emphasis on "I" have only heard good words about the reliability of Genelec or Neumann, they seem to last and a very long time... These companies produce many active speakers and to me that is the best way to get my music,. True!, passive speakers due to the electronics being outside, are more reparable but... absent a back-up amplifier if your amps fail, you are left with no music on your speakers
New electronics are more reliable than we credit them for... OTOH some electronics are so inexpensive that it is often more economical to buy a new one than repairing a failed one ... To make the choice even more difficult: Performances are at a level so high in some electronics that a $25 DAC is virtually transparent...

... so it is a matter of balance.

Personal anecdote: I bought , thanks to ASR the JDS Labs Atom at $100 and the Khadas Tone Board a $100, they replace a slew of "audiophile" DACs and headphone amplifiers... One of the DAC I held as my reference cost, new, more than $5000, ... The Atom will drive low or high impedance at ear destroying levels... with utter control and vanishing THD, it will also drive the most sensitive IEM with no hiss... It also is a preamp that maintains the same qualities when driving a power amplifier.. All that for $100 and consuming less than 6 watts at full power. WHat's there not to love? As for the Khadas Toneboard, it is among the top performers for DAC here at ASR ...

Peace