Help deciding amplifier-speakers match

[singeorge]

Hi all! This is my first post (although I've been watching the reviews and discussions for the past few years). I have finally decided to buy an integrated amplifier and a pair of speakers. The shortlist is (the combinations are between 1000-1500 Euros in Greece at the moment):

Amplifiers:
Rotel A11 Tribute
Advance Paris X-i 75 (heard it with the Q350 and I liked it and sounded ok but a bit sterile)
Musical Fidelity M2Si
Cambridge Audio CXA61 (heard it with the Triangle Borea and sounded ok but a bit less defined, with the Q350
ARCAM Radia A5
Speakers:
KEF Q350
Triangle Borea BR03
ELAC Debut Reference DBR62

I've manage to audition in a shop the Advance Paris X-i 75 with the Q350 and sounded very good but I felt the soundstage could be bigger.
I've also auditioned in the same shop the CXA61 with the Q350 and sounded ok, but uninspiring, with th BR03 but it was not that defined, and with the DBR62 but I felt the high end was lacking somewhat (although, I didn't hear it without the magnetic grill).

I would really appreciate if you could share any ideas about the other two amplifiers, that I cannot audition in Greece, in relation to the speakers I mentioned! Also, from the above, which do you think is the most suitable amplifier-speaker combination?

Edit: I am planning to put the amp/speakers in a small living room around 4x5 meters (13x16 feet) and my main source will be a streamer (I'm thinking of the wiim pro for now).

 

[Chrispy]

What would you get from "auditioning" an amp? I'd simply choose it on power/feature set. Speakers, have no experience with any of your choices. I'd say the Elac got some very good comments from quite a few, tho.....

 

[Deleted member 21219]

I've manage to audition in a shop the Advance Paris X-i 75 with the Q350 and sounded very good but I felt the soundstage could be bigger.
I've also auditioned in the same shop the CXA61 with the Q350 and sounded ok, but uninspiring, with th BR03 but it was not that defined, and with the DBR62 but I felt the high end was lacking somewhat (although, I didn't hear it without the magnetic grill).

Subjective "impressions" are useless for well-designed electronic gear. Decent electronics simply amplify the signal that they're given ... no more, no less.

This means that if there actually IS a difference regarding some amplifier, it's not a good amplifier.

As for differences between decent amps, a double-blind test will usually expose them as non-existent. We think they exist, but they don't. They are reactions to 1) the tricks sales personnel use, and 2) bias.

Here is a list of different biases: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases
Here is the methodology for blind tests, and a little bit on the reason why: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...d-testing-you-are-doing-it-wrong-video.26809/

BTW ... I've always thought Rotel was a good, reliable brand. I am not familiar with the others you mention.

Jim

 

[singeorge]

Thanks for the replies!

@Chrispy I agree that an amp should not make a difference in sound, but, I guess, that mostly happens to models that cost significantly more. I 've also read that DBR62 gets a lot of love, but, unfortunately, in the place I heard it, with the specific amplifier, although it sounded even, it sounded somewhat "closed". Some reviews suggest that taking of the grill from the tweeter makes a big difference, though.
@Jim Taylor I did some of the things mentioned in the links you said (db matching with a cheap decibelometer, another person was switching the amplifiers and the speakers), but, unfortunately, the shops do not have a way to do the a/b comparison instantly.

From what you say, maybe the question should be which of these amps/speakers do you think are the most technically capable (I don't mind about the ease of function such as bluetooth, digital inputs, phono inputs etc., as I plan to buy them separately later on).

 

[Leeken]

In my view this is really simple,use a transparent amplifier and dac (no bs audiophile brands,use purifi,Hypex,topping,etc) then a range of speakers in the same room to see which you prefer,either buy the most preferred speakers or use the measurements of that speaker to refine your choice to speakers which are similar,don’t listen to any bs off foot tapping snake oil salesmen.
Or alternatively get some well measuring actives preferably with room correction,consider days of chop and change over and just listen to music.

 

[Times]

Even if it is a very simplified comparison, perhaps it will at least help you to classify the order of magnitude of the differences between different amplifiers compared to those of different loudspeakers, as well as the listening room and the possibilities of digital room correction.

Yesterday I used REW and a UMIK-1 to measure the frequency response at my listening position with four different amplifiers (all in "direct" mode).
Models: Denon X4800H, Marantz SR6012 with internal amps, Marantz SR6012 with external power amp (Purifi 1ET400A) and Onkyo A-5VL.

And here are the difference between direct and the (out of the box) correction with Audyssey XT32 on my X4800H:

So my recommendation would be: Get something with an integrated DRC, no matter if Audyssey or Dirac.

cheers,
Times

 

[Willem]

Indeed, amplifiers do not have a sonic signature, unless they are underpowered. The OP did not mention the size of the room, and that matters a lot. A bigger room requires a lot, and I mean a lot, more power. One way to achieve this would be to use two or more active subwoofers and a high pass filter. So how about a DSPeaker X2 as a DAC/preamp, a Hypex based power amplifier, and two smallish sealed subwoofers in addition to whatever main speakers you choose?
It also matters what sources will be used: only modern digital stuff like streaming, or also analogue legacy sources. For a modern system the 2x125 watt Sonos AMP is also interesting because it has an inbuilt streamer and a hdmi connection for the TV. Again, add two small subs plus some dsp room eq and you are done in anything other than a very large room.

 

[singeorge]

@Willem Thank you for the notice. I will edit my question adding the room size (around 4x5 meters or 13x16 feet) and the sources (streamer, wiim pro for now).
@Times I don't know of any amps in the price range I suggested with Audyssey or Dirac. Maybe a mini-pc, with rew etc would be a more viable solution? Also, thank you for the plots!

 

[singeorge]

I've checked and Advance Paris X-i 75 has pre-out and amp-in. Could I connect there eg. the minidsp? Also the M2Si seems to have a pre out and an input call HT/AUX in which, according to the manual, "To use the AUX1/HT input as a Home Theatre input, move the AUX/HT switch to the HT position. This input is now unaffected by the volume control, allowing volume control on an external Home Theatre processor to be used directly. Connect Home theatre or other source outputs to the AUX1/HT input RCA sockets." Can these be used with a minidsp?

 

[Willem]

In that case I think the Sonos AMP is worth considering. It is discreet: the app is all you need to control it, so you can put the AMP out of sight. It has a subwoofer output with a user selectable 50-110 Hz high pass filter. Add two or more subwoofers, and equalize them with an ANtimode 8033 for ease of use, or Multi Sub Optimizer and a miniDSP 2x4HD for best results over a wide listening area, but only after some hard work. By and large it is the subwoofers that will benefit most from equalization.

 

[Times]

If you want to buy new devices only, I'd grab a Denon AVC-X3800H for around 850€ and put the rest of the budgets into speakers. Imho it's very convenient to have everything you need (and way more) in one appliance.

Otherwise a used Denon or Marantz AVR with Audyssey XT32 could be an option. YPAO from Yamaha also works well, which you get with their AV receivers and even some stereo receivers like the 803D (not available new anymore). Since from the recent portfolio the R-N800A is the cheapest one that comes with room correction and still costs 1.000€, i'd rather buy the aforementioned X3800H.

 

[Cote Dazur]

although I've been watching the reviews and discussions for the past few years

Reading your post, I am have serious doubt on how long you have been "watching the reviews and discussions".
Your post looks like a post from someone who has been here for maybe a day.
Their is a lot of vital information on ASR that answer all the questions you have in the OP and will help you get the best possible sound for your room and budget.
You are not ready to choose yet, take your time.
First step, get Floyd Toole book, read it (more than once), you will have much better questions in your next thread,

 

[JeremyFife]

If you use the WiiM Pro as your streamer (good choice) then it already has basic 4 band PEQ which should be enough to get started with.
If you decide to go for the more advanced DSP of a miniDSP (is that the Flex?) then why would you want an Integrated Amp? The miniDSP can act as your pre-amp and you just need a power amp.
Worth noting that the WiiM Pro PLUS has a better DAC and might be a better choice if you are feeding the analogue 'line in' for these amps.
Choose on features (that you actually want) and price (lowest, no point in paying more if it doesn't add anything)

 

[pogo]

Indeed, amplifiers do not have a sonic signature, unless they are underpowered.

You always have to see an amplifier in combination with a loudspeaker. This depends on the output impedance of the amplifier and the impedance curve of the speakers. The issue is very complex and also depends on different volume levels. You can only try it out. Another point is the load handling. A power cube measurement or a reactive load test is often very informative here, as there are amplifiers that perform at a purely ohmic load but drop massively with a phase shift of the speakers.

 

[pogo]

And here is an example of listening impressions if you have the option of adjusting the amplifier output impedance.

 

[Willem]

You always have to see an amplifier in combination with a loudspeaker. This depends on the output impedance of the amplifier and the impedance curve of the speakers. The issue is very complex and also depends on different volume levels. You can only try it out. Another point is the load handling. A power cube measurement or a reactive load test is often very informative here, as there are amplifiers that perform at a purely ohmic load but drop massively with a phase shift of the speakers.

Sorry, I was a bit brief by not including my usual proviso "if competently designed". A low output impedance is indeed required, and these Yamaha's sport that, like the vast majority of solid state amplifiers. It also presupposes that the speakers do not have some crazy impedance curve.