KEF R3 Speaker Review

[BYRTT]

I've put together a filterset for you with respect to all of Amir's data......
.....It flattens the direct sound, taking in account the side-wall reflection and overall in-room curve...

Thumb up for work there on filterset....

 

[TimVG]

Thumb up for work there on filterset....
View attachment 72654

Love those interactive graphs of yours!

 

[maty]

@Chagall

After comparing the specifications and measurements of the KEF R3 and KEF Q100, the higher sensitivity of the former is compensated by its lower minimum impedance (usually in 3-ways), so more or less the power requirements will be similar -> to listen to very good music recordings with high DR at 3 m they need 100 Watts at 4 Ohms with THD 0.1%.

Modern (and bad) commercial recordings, with DR < or << 10 dB, then less watts but it is not a good idea I think -> it is as if we put narrow tires on a sports car.

 

[BYRTT]

Love those interactive graphs of yours!

Thanks and agree some of them are practical and often makes sense to better understanding or quality control and remember when Amir first time shared a couple of spindata in zip-folders i got high on what that Spinorama and few polars could present and thought it could be a dream if ones room and transducer system was acoustic analyzed and coupled up so that whatever setting in ones DSP that was altered then a flat panel with something visual ala above would predict the corrections made.

Below one is really not so usefull and made for fun as symbol for KEF R3 have a solid objective 6,47 silver score in listed second on preference rating list, some nice curves there from KEF in relation to how tough a game it is to pass Amir's pro machinery.

 

[echopraxia]

System matching is just a myth. Two well engineered amps with same specs will sound the same, if not that means one of them or both are badly engineered.
At the time you connect your R3’s to a 200W nothing really magical will happen but you will be able to turn up the volume to pretty much any desirable volume and won’t feel the amp is holding you back.
As you already pointed out Orchestral music is your goal, usually this recordings are at much lower level/volume relative to 0dBs and have very high dynamic range, a powerful amplification will ensure you good performance during stressing passages/peaks. You always need a margin of power for headroom and low distortion, I really doubt people uses 300/400W amps at full volume inside houses with normal sensitivity speakers.

I suspect what’s been happening is that you enjoy turning up volume and have maxed out the 60W from your Rotel, so at full volume distortion goes up and headroom/dynamics are reduced. Have you ever pushed them to clip ?

Yeah, trying to think of amps as something you pair to a speaker’s sonic style is silly... all electronics should ideally just get out of the way and be transparent. Edit: Aside from DSP, which should modify the signal only precisely as you ask it to, and in the digital domain only, where nothing is left up to chance.

However, some speakers are harder to drive than others, and many amps are worse than you might think, especially for difficult loads. Many of them also inflate their power specs, and start to distort a lot at higher power outputs.

It is kind of sad that there are so many bad products out there when we already know it’s possible to get fully transparent and powerful results for a few hundred dollars (e.g, Hypex).

 

[echopraxia]

In other words, IMO any company who tries to reinvent the wheel and design an amp themselves, but ends up shipping a product that is massively overpriced or massively underperforming vs state-of-the-art OEM modules from Hypex and Purifi, is nothing but a scam artist company. I give a free pass if it was a product released before Hypex modules existed. But I do not give a free pass if a company sells an underperforming overpriced amp just because their engineers felt some kind of pride factor in inventing the amplifier section themselves (NIH “not invented here” syndrome is a well known problem, but it’s not an excuse for shipping sub-par results).

There is absolutely no way for any self respecting engineer to justify doing amplifier design work unless the goal is for results that match or exceed Hypex for the money. That said, I feel sorry for engineers working at companies where such goal setting is not in their control.

 

[Chagall]

In other words, IMO any company who tries to reinvent the wheel and design an amp themselves, but ends up shipping a product that is massively overpriced or massively underperforming vs state-of-the-art OEM modules from Hypex and Purifi, is nothing but a scam artist company. I give a free pass if it was a product released before Hypex modules existed. But I do not give a free pass if a company sells an underperforming overpriced amp just because their engineers felt some kind of pride factor in inventing the amplifier section themselves (NIH “not invented here” syndrome is a well known problem, but it’s not an excuse for shipping sub-par results).

There is absolutely no way for any self respecting engineer to justify doing amplifier design work unless the goal is for results that match or exceed Hypex for the money. That said, I feel sorry for engineers working at companies where such goal setting is not in their control.

@echopraxia I agree with what you said, but there is one caveat - I never heard of Hypex or Purifi. So noobs like me buy expensive overrated crap and
give these companies reason to exist. We all eat it up. Just think of Intel or Apple and their shiny boxes.

I was about to buy ifi zen dac. All glowing reviews (whathifi 5 stars) until amirm's review...so yeah, thanks for that!

 

[Ponzio]

First thread response, be gentle. Amateur hour here.

Don't own Mr. O'Toole audiophile tome but I've been told by various people I respect and whose encyclopedic knowledge of audiophile gear/speakers is jaw-dropping that I could pass muster in a pinch. And I own what I feel is some nice middle-of-the-road equipment/speakers (Focal/Salk/Ascend Acoustics) coupled with modern day Yammy AVR's (Aventage series) and an Oppo BDP-105 in my critical listening room, which the missus has now nationalized.

I came oh so close to buying this speaker, based on my ownership of the KEF LS50's, from a guy in Chicago. Luckily I had the common sense to go demo the speaker before sending the check and to say I was underwhelmed would be an understatement. Based on specs alone, these speakers should have been world-beaters.

In hindsight I was expecting the clarity and the dynamic sound of my LS50's with more bass.

Yet I was gob-smacked by the lack of detail in the higher frequencies, the dullness of the mid's and the over-the-top forward bass/woofer, as if to show it was a big boy for a bookshelf.

I can see where a young kid with more money than sense and living in a small apartment would love these speakers, to impress friends.

Speaker build was up to KEF standards, even with the plain Jane looks, but ... meh.

To each his own, i guess.

 

[echopraxia]

@echopraxia I agree with what you said, but there is one caveat - I never heard of Hypex or Purifi. So noobs like me buy expensive overrated crap and
give these companies reason to exist. We all eat it up. Just think of Intel or Apple and their shiny boxes.

I was about to buy ifi zen dac. All glowing reviews (whathifi 5 stars) until amirm's review...so yeah, thanks for that!

Oh yeah absolutely, same here. If it wasn't for this site, there's no way I could navigate all the noise from subjective reviews and manufacturer marketing hype. After finding this site and using these measurements to guide me, I really have not made a single bad audio purchase ever again.

Based on specs alone, these speakers should have been world-beaters.

In hindsight I was expecting the clarity and the dynamic sound of my LS50's with more bass.

Yet I was gob-smacked by the lack of detail in the higher frequencies, the dullness of the mid's and the over-the-top forward bass/woofer, as if to show it was a big boy for a bookshelf.

Again, you are not the only one. There are many of us who found this. What I'd love to know is if this is due to the frequency response we see in the measurements, or if it's something else. To that end, we'd need someone with R3's and the ability to precisely apply DSP to fix the midrange recession, and see if that changes things dramatically.

I can say that if I artificially introduce a few db recession in the same frequencies of my favorite speakers, they also become dull and boring sounding, in similar ways to how most people describe the R3. So it's quite possible this could explain it.

 

[TimVG]

To that end, we'd need someone with R3's and the ability to precisely apply DSP to fix the midrange recession, and see if that changes things dramatically.

We'll see what @Chagall 's impressions of the correction filters are compared to the original.

 

[Absolute]

Thumb up for work there on filterset....
View attachment 72654

This is effin nice! Could you (or some other regulars) guys please open a "Spinorama-based Speaker EQ" thread where the the teated speakers and their relative EQ points - and hopefully these beautiful graphs - would be shared?

That could be a nice sticky-thread @amirm ?

I could, but I think it's best if some of the more active regulars that can update the list as we go along would do so.
That would be a life-safer over time, imo.

 

[aarons915]

I came oh so close to buying this speaker, based on my ownership of the KEF LS50's, from a guy in Chicago. Luckily I had the common sense to go demo the speaker before sending the check and to say I was underwhelmed would be an understatement. Based on specs alone, these speakers should have been world-beaters.

In hindsight I was expecting the clarity and the dynamic sound of my LS50's with more bass.

Yet I was gob-smacked by the lack of detail in the higher frequencies, the dullness of the mid's and the over-the-top forward bass/woofer, as if to show it was a big boy for a bookshelf.

I know exactly what you mean, I actually brought home a pair to compare to my LS50 and they did play louder and cleaner with more bass but with dual subs in the mix I still preferred the LS50. After these measurements, I've been wanting to try the R3 out again to experiment with some PEQ so I bought a pair last week and with filters very similar to TimVG's I can say they beat the LS50 everywhere now.

Again, you are not the only one. There are many of us who found this. What I'd love to know is if this is due to the frequency response we see in the measurements, or if it's something else. To that end, we'd need someone with R3's and the ability to precisely apply DSP to fix the midrange recession, and see if that changes things dramatically.

I can say that if I artificially introduce a few db recession in the same frequencies of my favorite speakers, they also become dull and boring sounding, in similar ways to how most people describe the R3. So it's quite possible this could explain it.

I can say it's definitely due to frequency response as the openness and detail that was missing is back when I fill in the dip from 1-3k. I'm still tweaking my filters a bit, they are close to TimVG's but I'm modifying them just a bit based on listening comparisons. The 2700Hz peak off-axis is what is most challenging, if that weren't there these could be made even better with just a few filters.

 

[TimVG]

This is effin nice! Could you (or some other regulars) guys please open a "Spinorama-based Speaker EQ" thread where the the teated speakers and their relative EQ points - and hopefully these beautiful graphs - would be shared?

That could be a nice sticky-thread @amirm ?

I could, but I think it's best if some of the more active regulars that can update the list as we go along would do so.
That would be a life-safer over time, imo.

It's a good idea with the caveat that each of us has a slightly different approach to EQ'ing - it's a great subject though as it could really help advance what we know and how to correlate measurements to listener perception.

 

[Absolute]

It's a good idea with the caveat that each of us has a slightly different approach to EQ'ing - it's a great subject though as it could really help advance what we know and how to correlate measurements to listener perception.

It's possible to have the list/links to posts in the OP to the respective speakers, perhaps like this;

Kef R3;

- EQ 1 by QMuse (listening window EQ)
- EQ 2 by TimVG (Early Reflections EQ)
- EQ 3 by BYRTT (PIR EQ)

etc ...

That way we could perhaps get faster consensus between the speakers/users about what works best audibly.

 

[TimVG]

It's possible to have the list/links to posts in the OP to the respective speakers, perhaps like this;

Kef R3;

- EQ 1 by QMuse (listening window EQ)
- EQ 2 by TimVG (Early Reflections EQ)
- EQ 3 by BYRTT (PIR EQ)

etc ...

That way we could perhaps get faster consensus between the speakers/users about what works best audibly.

I prefer to limit the amount of filters to around 6 or less if possible. I know Qmuse has done some with well over 10 and BYRTT can literally make a curve as flat as a pancake. My current appraoch is a middle ground between on-axis (I aim to keep a neutral timbral balance here meaning no obvious downard or upward trend from the bass on), listening window, the side-wall reflection and the estimated in room response.

I've been experimenting with this new method on my Revels (F206) - and it could be bias, but they've never sounded this good to my ears.

 

[Ponzio]

I know exactly what you mean, I actually brought home a pair to compare to my LS50 and they did play louder and cleaner with more bass but with dual subs in the mix I still preferred the LS50. After these measurements, I've been wanting to try the R3 out again to experiment with some PEQ so I bought a pair last week and with filters very similar to TimVG's I can say they beat the LS50 everywhere now.



I can say it's definitely due to frequency response as the openness and detail that was missing is back when I fill in the dip from 1-3k. I'm still tweaking my filters a bit, they are close to TimVG's but I'm modifying them just a bit based on listening comparisons. The 2700Hz peak off-axis is what is most challenging, if that weren't there these could be made even better with just a few filters.

Interesting. Who knows what type of EQ'ing was done. It was after all a Magnolia (Best Buy) showroom.

I also ran them in Pure Direct Mode too on a Yamaha RX-A3060(?) and they sounded even worse when I was A/B'ing them.

 

[Chromatischism]

Hm I've seen test of Crown 2502 or XTZ amp, just not sure about class D. Afraid it won't be full body and end up still going for clean AB power later.

Get yourself a Hypex NCore-based amp like an NC252MP and it will change your mind about Class D. And probably save you money.

But still, subs first. Hopefully you have bass management capability?

 

[tecnogadget]

The thing with “in store” demo is that you don’t really know how they have set up everything, and we are all aware of the million tweaks and setting an AVR has through the GUI this days...

I was at Harrods in London (yes that ultra Luxury building where millionaires go to buy stuff) on the tech/audio floor where I was able to listen to the best headphone setup till today (Senn HD800, Astell & Krell 5K€ DAP, HDVD 800 amp 2K€).
They also had speakers from B&O and some KEF BLADE & LS50. I asked for a seller to demo the BLADES and it was connected to a very standard Yammy AVR (can’t recall model) and the woman had absolutely no idea what she was doing with the remote control...end of the story they managed to make 25K speakers sound like crap and I’m sure I wasn’t getting what I should have. And they were also placed at the center of a really big open space so absolutely no boundary reinforcement, plus background loud conversation noises making its way.

In any house room or decent dealer demo space they should have left a totally different and positive impression.

 

[Ponzio]

The thing with “in store” demo is that you don’t really know how they have set up everything, and we are all aware of the million tweaks and setting an AVR has through the GUI this days...

In any house room or decent dealer demo space they should have left a totally different and positive impression.

Agreed.

The room was not optimal by any stretch and the sales personnel weren't going to let me run the YPAO room EQ then and there. Luckily though it was around 1:30 in the afternoon on a Tuesday or whatever, the place was deserted and once the manager realized I knew my way around a Yammy AVR, he pretty well left me to my own devices to try different DSP settings/modes & whatnot.

I decided not to purchase them based on what I was hearing in Pure Direct mode. I wanted them to be great, I really did. The sales price was very affordable ($1,400 + shipping) and the seller had just recently purchased them 5 months ago (he sent me a pic of the sales receipt) and claimed he wanted to upgrade to a KEF tower.

Who knows maybe I could have manipulated the YPAO to my tastes.

 

[Chagall]

We'll see what @Chagall 's impressions of the correction filters are compared to the original.

OK so i focused on mid-range:
1) Anne Sofie von Otter - Baby plays around
EQ off - start of the song details like lip smacks, teeth and tongue noises, "t" and "s" are overpowering
EQ on - i still hear all the details but her voice is fuller and more balanced, less bright

2) Nina Simone - I put a spell on you
EQ off - again saxophone and singers voice more in upper registers, more bright and also metallic
EQ on - no detail loss, balanced, think the tone is more accurate

3) Tom Waits - I hope that i dont't fall in love with you
EQ on - imaging is better, more space between guitars on the left/right and voice in the dead center, while without EQ voice is more mixed in with guitars and more in the back.

3 songs is not much but it's is a noticeable improvement.

Get yourself a Hypex NCore-based amp like an NC252MP and it will change your mind about Class D. And probably save you money.

But still, subs first. Hopefully you have bass management capability?

No ill will against class D, just no experience.
I have bass management just not sure where to put it in the chain.
Source - toslink in minidsp - crossover - 2x rca out to integrated - 2x rca out to sub?
But how to control sub volume then? Minidsp should go after preamp and i have integrated?