KEF LS60 Wireless Just Announced

[JustJones]

When I had the LS60 I couldn't position them optimally. To close to a wall on one side and a cabinet on the other so side firing woofers were a problem. I've since sold off some furniture and rearranged the room so I'm thinking of giving them another try.

 

[Puddingbuks]

I’ll take that as no you haven’t tried an alternative streaming method

What is the point in doing so?

Streaming audio should be an easy task for any device or streaming method, very little bandwidth is required.

 

[Emlin]

What is the point in doing so?

Streaming audio should be an easy task for any device or streaming method, very little bandwidth is required.

To diagnose your problem.

 

[kemmler3D]

I may have found a solution for the slow wifi speed causing drop outs on my Kef LS60, by disabling the wifi 2.4G setting / band on my wifi router.

Will check the next days, but everything seems better now. The LS60 connected to the 2.4G wifi of my router, which also sends 5G wifi. By disabling it, the LS60 now selects the much faster 5G connection. You can’t select it in the kef app yourself.

Have you messed around with the Quality of Service settings on your router?

Some routers will give you the option to specifically prioritize certain devices on the network.

Back when I used the Steam Link (audio / video streamer for PC games) I spent a good amount of time playing with router settings to get really smooth and low-latency performance out of it, eventually with success.

FWIW I am using these mesh routers and the only problem I've had so far was loud interference with the wireless subwoofer transmitter when I put one right next to the router.

You are certainly right that audio doesn't require enough bandwidth to stress any modern router, so my guess is your problem has something to do with your router "not liking" the LS60 in some way.

 

[Puddingbuks]

You are certainly right that audio doesn't require enough bandwidth to stress any modern router, so my guess is your problem has something to do with your router "not liking" the LS60 in some way.

I tried another router, problem is the same. And I can google similar wifi problems users have with LS60 and Kef wireless II (LS50).

So I think it’s more likely to be a kef problem, the hardware and software they use. Or probably the 3rd party they hired.

 

[GA16SE]

Maybe it would have been better if KEF had provided a port for connecting a small wireless antenna on the back panel of the primary speaker.

 

[Vacceo]

Even with a PLC you´ll get decent results. Those are cheap and for the amont of data you´ll need, they´re well suited.

 

[kemmler3D]

I tried another router, problem is the same. And I can google similar wifi problems users have with LS60 and Kef wireless II (LS50).

So I think it’s more likely to be a kef problem, the hardware and software they use. Or probably the 3rd party they hired.

Huh, strange. I haven't had WiFi issues crop up yet, have had them a few months now. You'd think they would all have the issue or none.

 

[terryforsythe]

I’ll take that as no you haven’t tried an alternative streaming method

I have.

My NAS is connected to my router via Ethernet, and the router is connected to my LS60s via WiFi. Streaming from my NAS, using Logitech Media Server, to my LS60s has been flawless. I mostly use LMS, and I have not had a single instance of stuttering while doing so. I have had the speakers since Dec. 26.

Streaming from my new Android tablet, though, I had some issues with stuttering, both using Tidal Connect and KEF Connect.

I have done the following:

1. On my tablet, under the WiFi settings, I changed the "Metered network" setting from "Detect automatically" to "Treat as unmetered". This seams to have helped. I just made the "unmetered" change yesterday, and only had a single instance of stuttering when streaming from my tablet. This happened when first opening Tidal Connect and streaming my first song, but not after that. Thus, it definitely got better.

2. Today, on my router I assigned static IP addresses both to my tablet and my LS60s. Then, under QoS, I assigned as "priority" a connection with my tablet's IP address as the "Source host" to my LS60s IP address as the "Destination host". I monitored my receive rate and transmission rate on the LS60's IP address while streaming from my tablet, both before and after these changes. Before the changes both were fluctuating quite a bit. (This makes sense since I have around 50 devices connected to my router over WiFi). After the changes the receive rate is locked at 433.3 Mbit/s. The transmission rate is fluctuating a little bit, but not as much before. No stuttering yet, but I need to give it more time to see if the issue is completely resolved.

 

[Soniclife]

You'd think they would all have the issue or none.

That's not been my experience of networks, some combinations of kit and networks just don't seem to like each other, and it's never been obvious which is at fault.

 

[Purité Audio]

My experience too stretching back to the Weiss MAN301, I remember a friend coming to visit me on three separate occasions and the blasted thing just would not connect, ipad fine other devices fine …
Networks nearly always the issue .
Keith

 

[goat76]

The problem with having everything built into a loudspeaker like the KEF LS60 is that many manufacturers don't seem to be fully committed to how much work is needed to keep everything up to date and working. Every time a third party as a streaming service makes some changes to their platform or how their network works, the loudspeaker manufacturer must have set aside enough resources to keep everything in the speaker updated.

Does KEF have a module of some sort that can be easily swapped in these speakers if new functionality is required in the near future?
Will they add new software-based functionality and things like that?

Reading this thread, there seem to be many things that users are hoping that KEF will add in future updates, but has KEF announced any future plans for new functionality, and is the built-in software capable of handling that?

 

[Muddywaters]

My use case with my LS60’s was never intended to use KEF’s solution. I use WiiM Mini’s to be able to sync up to five zones (never have issues) so I had no need or experience using the KEF Connect app for streaming other than during the initial setup.

Being curious, I did some testing Saturday and Sunday. I flipped the LS60’s to Wi-Fi, used Amazon Music and streamed all afternoon and evening without a problem. I tested the the connection a few times using the KEF app during this time. Also checked speeds on my iPad Mini. Network >>> to iPad was 240+ Mbits throughout testing. Shutdown the Speakers late on Saturday.

Sunday turned them on and couldn’t get them to connect with Amazon Music. Switched to the optical input to try my WiiM (which I had placed on the floor next to the right LS60) streamed Amazon Music perfectly. Checked the KEF app connection test and my iPad speeds.

The yellow marked test was while Amazon Music was “stuck”. The green tests are all “good” Wi-Fi tests. I disconnected the speakers from AC and then powered them back up and was still stuck. Plugged in via Ethernet and was fine. Switched back to Wi-Fi (top connection test) and was good to go again.

I’ll leave those that depend on streaming through the KEF app to troubleshoot further and perhaps fine tune their network settings or KEF to address the issues.

 

[terryforsythe]

1. On my tablet, under the WiFi settings, I changed the "Metered network" setting from "Detect automatically" to "Treat as unmetered". This seams to have helped. I just made the "unmetered" change yesterday, and only had a single instance of stuttering when streaming from my tablet. This happened when first opening Tidal Connect and streaming my first song, but not after that. Thus, it definitely got better.

2. Today, on my router I assigned static IP addresses both to my tablet and my LS60s. Then, under QoS, I assigned as "priority" a connection with my tablet's IP address as the "Source host" to my LS60s IP address as the "Destination host". I monitored my receive rate and transmission rate on the LS60's IP address while streaming from my tablet, both before and after these changes. Before the changes both were fluctuating quite a bit. (This makes sense since I have around 50 devices connected to my router over WiFi). After the changes the receive rate is locked at 433.3 Mbit/s. The transmission rate is fluctuating a little bit, but not as much before. No stuttering yet, but I need to give it more time to see if the issue is completely resolved.

I listened to Tidal last night for about 4 hours while streamingfrom my tablet. Not a single glitch since I implemented the above changes. At this point it looks like these changes resolved the streaming issue with the LS60s.

I will post an update if anything changes.

 

[Damned]

I had one dropout in a month so you made me make some tests and here it is. Kef is really underestimating network speed. Here are the results with pretty great network speed. So for ls60 with more than 600Mbps you get 23/24 Mbs and with Ethernet 1000 Mbps you get those 80/90 Mbps. I'll keep Ethernet for peace of mind.

 

[terryforsythe]

I have.

My NAS is connected to my router via Ethernet, and the router is connected to my LS60s via WiFi. Streaming from my NAS, using Logitech Media Server, to my LS60s has been flawless. I mostly use LMS, and I have not had a single instance of stuttering while doing so. I have had the speakers since Dec. 26.

Streaming from my new Android tablet, though, I had some issues with stuttering, both using Tidal Connect and KEF Connect.

I have done the following:

1. On my tablet, under the WiFi settings, I changed the "Metered network" setting from "Detect automatically" to "Treat as unmetered". This seams to have helped. I just made the "unmetered" change yesterday, and only had a single instance of stuttering when streaming from my tablet. This happened when first opening Tidal Connect and streaming my first song, but not after that. Thus, it definitely got better.

2. Today, on my router I assigned static IP addresses both to my tablet and my LS60s. Then, under QoS, I assigned as "priority" a connection with my tablet's IP address as the "Source host" to my LS60s IP address as the "Destination host". I monitored my receive rate and transmission rate on the LS60's IP address while streaming from my tablet, both before and after these changes. Before the changes both were fluctuating quite a bit. (This makes sense since I have around 50 devices connected to my router over WiFi). After the changes the receive rate is locked at 433.3 Mbit/s. The transmission rate is fluctuating a little bit, but not as much before. No stuttering yet, but I need to give it more time to see if the issue is completely resolved.

Here is an update:

1. Streaming from my Android tablet, I again experienced some stuttering. The frequency of the occurrences is significantly lower than before after making the above changes on my tablet and in my router, though. The stuttering is more frequent with very dynamic music (e.g., Vivaldi).

2. I streamed from my Windows computer all day yesterday, and there was not any stuttering whatsoever. As noted above, I also do not ever get stuttering when streaming from my NAS.

The evidence is pointing at my new Android tablet being the issue, and not necessarily the LS60s per se. I have ordered a new WiFi router to see if it will help but, to be candid, I don't think it will. I will post an update after I test it. I also will see if there is more tweaking I can do on my tablet to improve its streaming capability.

 

[thebratts]

I had one dropout in a month so you made me make some tests and here it is. Kef is really underestimating network speed. Here are the results with pretty great network speed. So for ls60 with more than 600Mbps you get 23/24 Mbs and with Ethernet 1000 Mbps you get those 80/90 Mbps. I'll keep Ethernet for peace of mind.

View attachment 341230

View attachment 341221

View attachment 341231

Since I guess it's not needed perhaps Kef does not use a gigabit ethernet card so 80/90 seems about right if that is the case.

 

[Damned]

Since I guess it's not needed perhaps Kef does not use a gigabit ethernet card so 80/90 seems about right if that is the case.

I think you're absolutely right and I attached those speed test for user not to worry (too much). I'm finally switching to qobuz and listening since a few hours to 192 kHz only tracks and of course no dropout but I will test with wifi also

 

[kemmler3D]

The frequency of the occurrences is significantly lower than before after making the above changes on my tablet and in my router, though. The stuttering is more frequent with very dynamic music (e.g., Vivaldi).

I think that suggests your tablet is struggling to decode and transmit audio at the same time. The decoding bitrate would increase with more dynamic music but the transmission bitrate should be constant... (probably?) So it might be more of a memory / CPU issue than network. I wonder if you plug the tablet into AC power, does it help the stuttering?

 

[terryforsythe]

I think that suggests your tablet is struggling to decode and transmit audio at the same time. The decoding bitrate would increase with more dynamic music but the transmission bitrate should be constant... (probably?) So it might be more of a memory / CPU issue than network. I wonder if you plug the tablet into AC power, does it help the stuttering?

Very good point.

While playing Tidal Connect I have the following resource utilization on my tablet:

RAM usage is sitting between 63% and 66%. So, no real issue there.

CPU (Snapdragon 720G processor) utilization mostly sits at 14% and all 8 cores mostly just sit at their base clock speeds. But sometimes the CPU utilization and clock speeds increase, and once in while they max out. I notice that when a lot of violins get going the CPU is working harder, but not struggling. Seemingly randomly, the CPU maxes out. Maybe due to background tasks?

Of course, while I was monitoring no stuttering occurred. But, looking at the data I have formed a hypothesis. It could be that when a background task kicks in while the music bitrate is high, that is when stuttering occurs.

Next step is to try to stop as many background tasks as I can.