KEF LS60 Wireless Just Announced

[ahofer]

Today I auditioned the LS60. The shop owner began with the usual “class d sucks” and lack of warmth in the kefs, so he thought the LS60 were not to be used with classical music and jazz. For that kind of music I had to choose harbeth or sonus faber.

Anyways, I got about an hour to check m out.

The room was terrible, massive standing waves in the low frequencies at about 60-80hz. This made a good evaluation nearly impossible.

Strong points are the stereo image, everything is nicely laid out in the space between and next to the speakers. They can play pretty loud. Vocals are great. A track like Hapiness is easy from Talk Talk starts super tight and then Mark Hollis is lifelike in the room. Amazing.

Weak points: the bass was somewhat artificial. Also not very deep. A track like Oi-1 from biosphere, which is partly felt and superdeep and defined on my own double 15 inch subwoofer system, just doesn’t cut it on the LS60. Maybe not a fair comparison. Piano seemed somewhat annoying sounding. But again, this could also be the room with hard floors.

It’s so annoying. So many of these guys just repeat magical phrases and pay no attention to real things that affect sound. It’s like going to a seance.

 

[Emlin]

It’s so annoying. So many of these guys just repeat magical phrases and pay no attention to real things that affect sound. It’s like going to a seance.

Time to turn the tables on them, then.

 

[Puddingbuks]

To me, from that point on, everything that guy was saying didn’t matter.

 

[kemmler3D]

To me, from that point on, everything that guy was saying didn’t matter.

Yeah, you don't have to listen to the sales staff as long as they let you listen to the speaker.

 

[Vacceo]

Today I auditioned the LS60. The shop owner began with the usual “class d sucks” and lack of warmth in the kefs, so he thought the LS60 were not to be used with classical music and jazz. For that kind of music I had to choose harbeth or sonus faber.

Anyways, I got about an hour to check m out.

The room was terrible, massive standing waves in the low frequencies at about 60-80hz. This made a good evaluation nearly impossible.

Strong points are the stereo image, everything is nicely laid out in the space between and next to the speakers. They can play pretty loud. Vocals are great. A track like Hapiness is easy from Talk Talk starts super tight and then Mark Hollis is lifelike in the room. Amazing.

Weak points: the bass was somewhat artificial. Also not very deep. A track like Oi-1 from biosphere, which is partly felt and superdeep and defined on my own double 15 inch subwoofer system, just doesn’t cut it on the LS60. Maybe not a fair comparison. Piano seemed somewhat annoying sounding. But again, this could also be the room with hard floors.

The seller points are perfectly pitched for the average older listener.

I'd have requested Godflesh's Streetcleaner to be played as demo just to enjoy the disconfort of the seller.

 

[auricom]

I'd have a change to get these at a good price (unused, but open box), almost 1000€ less than the current sale price.
Of course this would be a big investment, and I'm not sure. It's hard to compare to speakers from Genelec etc. and I haven't heard any.
But that isn't super important, because everything would sound different in other places anyway.
Mainly I'm trying to know what are it's closest competitors. Buchardt A700 is one that is mentioned everywhere. It's also tower.
If we are talking about those. But it doesn't have to be. That would be close to 2000€ more with Platin Hub.

Imaging thanks to coaxial (or whatever) design seems to be the strong point of this speaker. Everything else is also good? Bass is not as strong as it's competitors, no surprise with smaller drivers. That could even be an okay thing for me. Less noise for neighbours? But I have read that larger drivers have better dynamics, and sound "bigger".
I think A700 for example, is better speaker than LS60 for most users. But could LS60 be almost as good for me, if I mostly listen at low volumes, never louder than middle, and I suppose coaxial design would work better for nearfield/ close listening than ordinary design, like A700 has? They don't report recommended listening distances for these speakers. I know they are wrong choices as "computer speakers" but who cares? I also don't want to add subwoofers, these classy speakers would take all my budget, and more. 30hz should be fine.

 

[Danaxus]

I'd have a change to get these at a good price (unused, but open box), almost 1000€ less than the current sale price.

If you have the chance to pick them up for ~3,600€, do it if it makes sense to you. If not, please give me the opportunity to pick them up instead - I won’t pass on that.
Cheers!

 

[AudioJester]

Of course this would be a big investment

This is a problem in the audio hobby, people overspending for marginal benefit. What I mean is the law of diminishing returns is strong here, and we pay a lot for very small benefits, often theoretical or minimally audible unless trained ear.

For a desktop in an a apartment? with neighbours, noise concern? No point spending extra on speakers that have the redundancy to go loud.
Kali IN8, then if need/want more bass add a Kali sub. If kef -the ls50W plus sub would be more than enough.

At lower listening levels, I forget the name of the curves, you need some sort of eq/dsp to pump up the bass.

But yeah, such a discount on LS60 seems irrisistable!

 

[kemmler3D]

I'd have a change to get these at a good price (unused, but open box), almost 1000€ less than the current sale price.
Of course this would be a big investment, and I'm not sure. It's hard to compare to speakers from Genelec etc. and I haven't heard any.
But that isn't super important, because everything would sound different in other places anyway.
Mainly I'm trying to know what are it's closest competitors. Buchardt A700 is one that is mentioned everywhere. It's also tower.
If we are talking about those. But it doesn't have to be. That would be close to 2000€ more with Platin Hub.

Imaging thanks to coaxial (or whatever) design seems to be the strong point of this speaker. Everything else is also good? Bass is not as strong as it's competitors, no surprise with smaller drivers. That could even be an okay thing for me. Less noise for neighbours? But I have read that larger drivers have better dynamics, and sound "bigger".
I think A700 for example, is better speaker than LS60 for most users. But could LS60 be almost as good for me, if I mostly listen at low volumes, never louder than middle, and I suppose coaxial design would work better for nearfield/ close listening than ordinary design, like A700 has? They don't report recommended listening distances for these speakers. I know they are wrong choices as "computer speakers" but who cares? I also don't want to add subwoofers, these classy speakers would take all my budget, and more. 30hz should be fine.

At 1000 EUR lower than the current sale price, it's a pretty good way to spend your money IMO. The bass won't change your world, but the clarity you get from the coaxial design is really nice. The LS60s sound bigger than they look, that's for sure, especially if you are not going to super loud volumes. I've also found the dynamics are quite good.

I am not sure about using them for a nearfield setup, the question is whether the side radiators will integrate properly close up. I am not sure about the recommended listening distance either. Also the tweeters are set for couch height, so if you are sitting at a desk you'll need little stands.

 

[Danaxus]

At 1000 EUR lower than the current sale price, it's a pretty good way to spend your money IMO. The bass won't change your world, but the clarity you get from the coaxial design is really nice. The LS60s sound bigger than they look, that's for sure, especially if you are not going to super loud volumes. I've also found the dynamics are quite good.

I am not sure about using them for a nearfield setup, the question is whether the side radiators will integrate properly close up. I am not sure about the recommended listening distance either. Also the tweeters are set for couch height, so if you are sitting at a desk you'll need little stands.

I know a lot of people want their speakers to reach deep, but I still don't understand exactly why. As long as they go to 100Hz, the sub(s) can do the heavy lifting. Below 80Hz gives you more flexibility with the crossover, but not sure how useful that would be. I'm still inexperienced with acoustics though, so maybe there's a good reason to go with a pair of LS60's, instead of a pair of R3's and a nice hefty SVS sub or two.

Your point about nearfield is a really good one - with those side-firing woofer pairs, maybe they would sound awkward ~1m away. Maybe the R3's or even LS50 Meta's would be better for that?

 

[kemmler3D]

I know a lot of people want their speakers to reach deep, but I still don't understand exactly why. As long as they go to 100Hz, the sub(s) can do the heavy lifting. Below 80Hz gives you more flexibility with the crossover, but not sure how useful that would be. I'm still inexperienced with acoustics though, so maybe there's a good reason to go with a pair of LS60's, instead of a pair of R3's and a nice hefty SVS sub or two.

Your point about nearfield is a really good one - with those side-firing woofer pairs, maybe they would sound awkward ~1m away. Maybe the R3's or even LS50 Meta's would be better for that?

If I was restricted to 1M seating I'd probably do the LS50 Metas instead. The bass will be slightly worse, but subs will cover many sins there. The wavelength of 300hz is right around 1M and it gets worse below that, so you may end up finding the "single apparent source" not so singular if you're too close. This is a vague hunch and not based on anything in particular, though. I guess I could go crouch in front of one and let you know my impressions.

As for "why do people want their speakers to go low"... 20-30hz is audible and if there's something I can hear that the speaker can't output, then the system is incomplete. Simple as that.

Also, people like to say there's no musical content below ~30hz, definitely not true. Any sharp transient includes all frequencies, from 20-20khz. If you listen to music with percussion, you're going to run across 20hz from time to time almost inevitably. I also listen to electronic music which will occasionally go below 20hz, let alone 30.

 

[voodooless]

I know a lot of people want their speakers to reach deep, but I still don't understand exactly why. As long as they go to 100Hz, the sub(s) can do the heavy lifting. Below 80Hz gives you more flexibility with the crossover, but not sure how useful that would be.

The more devices you have around the room doing < 100 Hz, the more tools you have to do room correction. Specifically in cases where you only have one sub, this can be a big benefit. Obviously this is not a good idea with tiny 5.25” woofers in a bookshelf, but if you have something more substantial, it may very well work out positively.

 

[kemmler3D]

The more devices you have around the room doing < 100 Hz, the more tools you have to do room correction. Specifically in cases where you only have one sub, this can be a big benefit. Obviously this is not a good idea with tiny 5.25” woofers in a bookshelf, but if you have something more substantial, it may very well work out positively.

Agree - my opinion is that when integrating subs, you should run everything full-range (or at least with significant overlap) as long as it's not creating huge distortion problems. This way you have more sources for more of the room modes, improving the odds of being able to cut / fill peaks / notches.

If your mains can do 30hz without too much distortion, I think it's a total waste to highpass them at 80hz or whatever, unless you're really noticeably bothered by THD in that range.

 

[AudioJester]

We place too much importance on sub bass - which is a lot of fun!
The critical bass area 80-250Hz, the LS60 does brilliantly - although probably not in near field.by the way multiple bass sources wont work for most bass in music in this frequency range - hence dipole/cardioid/dsp etc. Not as bad as sub bass but still below transition zone.

 

[pablolie]

We place too much importance on sub bass - which is a lot of fun!
...

...and given the specs and reviews of the LS60 I very much doubt bass is an issue unless you have a palatial room and/or are into "immersive FX". I haven't read a single review that states the LS60 is lacking in bass in any way, and the measurements that KEF provides seem to bear that out.

In general, I think the bass rule is KISS, i.e. keep-it-simple-#, at least as simple as you can. Integrating a single sub correctly is not trivial, integrating two if you cross over at over 80Hz and still want a coherent stereo picture is even harder, and I honestly would never want to deal with many bass sources scattered around - it sounds like random and bad system design to me.

I am following the LS60 updates, and will get some as soon as they (hopefully) come out in red, but I am not sure I'd even try to use a subwoofer with them - at least not in my current environment (which is not a small room - it is large-ish with cathedral ceilings, but I sit 7-8 ft from the speakers).

But that's just me, and everybody has different preferences and a different approach to cater to their priorities.

 

[GA16SE]

Those four Uni-Core Force Cancelling speakers in each speaker ensure extension to low-frequency sounds, sometimes too pronounced in my room. The KEF Connect app doesn’t have enough setting options for certain situations when some acoustic deficiencies of the listening room are amplified.

I still hope that KEF might provide Dirac Live Room Correction for these speakers.

 

[kemmler3D]

Those four Uni-Core Force Cancelling speakers in each speaker ensure extension to low-frequency sounds, sometimes too pronounced in my room. The KEF Connect app doesn’t have enough setting options for certain situations when some acoustic deficiencies of the listening room are amplified.

I still hope that KEF might provide Dirac Live Room Correction for these speakers.

Personally I'm planning on doing some room correction myself, via a DSP inserted on the optical input.

Yes, you kinda lose the streaming functionality there, but I've also got a WiiM Mini in there, so it's not such a loss except in terms of tidiness.

It would be truly nice to have at least a (say) 20-band PEQ in there for room correction though, what a dream that would be. I'm sure there's enough DSP horsepower in the box, what I am not sure of is whether there's enough left over after the stock DSP is done, for user EQ to that extent.

 

[dominikz]

I know a lot of people want their speakers to reach deep, but I still don't understand exactly why. As long as they go to 100Hz, the sub(s) can do the heavy lifting. Below 80Hz gives you more flexibility with the crossover, but not sure how useful that would be. I'm still inexperienced with acoustics though, so maybe there's a good reason to go with a pair of LS60's, instead of a pair of R3's and a nice hefty SVS sub or two.

Your point about nearfield is a really good one - with those side-firing woofer pairs, maybe they would sound awkward ~1m away. Maybe the R3's or even LS50 Meta's would be better for that?

It seems that many people believe that having full-range loudspeakers gives you full-range playback without the complexity of integrating subwoofers.

However I find that position to be overly optimistic - in reality having fullrange (non-cardioid) loudspeakers in a 2.0 arrangement means you cannot really place the loudspeakers to avoid the SBIR dips, which are the main cause of bass suckout.

On the other hand, mains + subs which are properly placed can largely avoid SBIR-induced bass dips, owing to the fact that subs can be placed independently to the mains and thereby avoiding the dip in the operating range of either.

Of course full-range loudspeakers with cardioid bass change the story completely - if placed near the front wall they can avoid the SBIR dip (it falls in the cardioid null) but also benefit from full-range playback.
In conclusion, I'd really only consider full-range loudspeakers if they were also cardioid - and ideally if they had built-in room EQ. IMHO this is where a lot of the appeal of products from e.g. D&D, Kii, Mesanovic and Buchardt comes from.

 

[GA16SE]

Personally I'm planning on doing some room correction myself, via a DSP inserted on the optical input.

Yes, you kinda lose the streaming functionality there, but I've also got a WiiM Mini in there, so it's not such a loss except in terms of tidiness.

It would be truly nice to have at least a (say) 20-band PEQ in there for room correction though, what a dream that would be. I'm sure there's enough DSP horsepower in the box, what I am not sure of is whether there's enough left over after the stock DSP is done, for user EQ to that extent.

Not so long ago I wrote an email message to KEF asking whether the audio signal previously processed by a Dirac-enabled device might be altered by the internal DSP of the LS60 speakers. The answer was no alteration.

Moreover, to ensure the validity of the DIRAC calibration during speaker use, they recommended maintaining the same settings that were used during the calibration process. KEF suggested initiating the DIRAC calibration with the speaker in the 'Default' EQ profile. That practice allows for flexibility within the DIRAC ecosystem while ensuring that any modifications made through the speaker or KEFF app will not disrupt the signal or calibration.

 

[harkpabst]

Agree - my opinion is that when integrating subs, you should run everything full-range (or at least with significant overlap) as long as it's not creating huge distortion problems. This way you have more sources for more of the room modes, improving the odds of being able to cut / fill peaks / notches.

I see the (very reasonable) thinking behind this approach, but don't necessarily agree (in most situations).

From my experience small 2-way main speakers will always benefit so much from high pass filtering due to reduced distortion, it outweighs everything else.

Big speakers might be a different story but placement for best overall performance ist probably still much different from placement for most effective reduction of room modes.

With any kind of overlap you will need a capable room correction anyway, not just "bass management" for the sub(s). Otherwise some area of boom is almost guaranteed. But if you implement that room correction anyway then just using it with well placed stereo subs might yield at least the same or maybe better results.

Having more than two subs (and a system that properly integrates them) is certainly the gold standard but probably not cost effective.