KEF LS60 Wireless Just Announced

[TSB]

Truth be told, that is one of the reasons I cannot comprehend about these speakers (or the LS50 wireless). It would be amazing that you could toy with those values or if you're lazy like me, get a license for room calibration, plug a mic to a PC and let Dirac/arc/Audyssey/Lyngdorf do the heavy lifting for you.

Presumably, to allow you to configure the dsp with the app would add significant software development cost, and I imagine doesn't really fit the lifestyle consumer they target. Atm they probably just hardcode the values (or set them during factory testing?)

For why no dirac I dont have an answer

 

[Mnyb]

Possible, but probable? That would be totally unusable for any sort of live performance scenario, so couldn't come from a proper monitor.

Can you point to a real commercial product that bad?

As I mentioned above, Genelec's worst phase-coherent 3-way is 8.6ms.

Disputed existence of as-bad-as-50ms speakers is irrelevant though if the miniDSP has a mere 7.2ms limit - that is uncomfortably tight, and clearly close to some real speakers.



Doesn't eliminate the potential problem you're describing though, as that in turn has a limit on the delay offset it can put in of +/-10ms.

Thanks all for these thoughts .

Part two of my Q was .

If let's the active speaker be it ls60 or ls50 do the sub xover . Can Dirac then do it’s magic on the whole system and be used that way ?

 

[Daka]

Thanks all for these thoughts .

Part two of my Q was .

If let's the active speaker be it ls60 or ls50 do the sub xover . Can Dirac then do it’s magic on the whole system and be used that way ?

Yes Dirac could do magic on the whole system - to that box with Dirac it would be seen as single speaker. Obviously all music would need to go through that box as well, you would need to select suitable xo on ls60 and match sound levels for best results

 

[Mnyb]

Yes Dirac could do magic on the whole system - to that box with Dirac it would be seen as single speaker. Obviously all music would need to go through that box as well, you would need to select suitable xo on ls60 and match sound levels for best results

Thanks . for verifying this use case .

Yes I mostly 99% of the time use my music server via a Raspberry PI these days , and my server has a Spotify plugin so I do streaming via the server to . So if I get a mini DSP I will conect all my sources trough it and it it turn will feed whatever speakers I get .

( tv and movies are another system and headphones is it’s own system too )

 

[samysound]

Thanks all for these thoughts .

Part two of my Q was .

If let's the active speaker be it ls60 or ls50 do the sub xover . Can Dirac then do it’s magic on the whole system and be used that way ?

Yes Dirac could help but it has limited leeway for correction so it works best if you first set cross-overs, volume and phase/delay so you have a nice transition from speaker to sub at the crossover freq. it looks like the ls60 has capability to manually adjust time delay with the subwoofer output. Here is a link to the manual. See the “expert eq” mode section which has a screenshot of the subwoofer settings in the kef app

https://us.kef.com/pub/media/ls60-content/LS60W_Product_Manual.pdf

 

[samysound]

Come to think of it, the LS60 has dynamic compression for the bass depending on the volume. Would this cause issues with Dirac depending on how loud the test tones are played?

 

[Daka]

Come to think of it, the LS60 has dynamic compression for the bass depending on the volume. Would this cause issues with Dirac depending on how loud the test tones are played?

A. When crossing over with sub at 80 this won’t matter
B. They mention this only when extra bass extention is selected on ls60, possibly not happening in other modes - when using with sub extra extension is not required

Interesting to me is whether you can change those modes and save it based on inputs - so for Dirac have different and for streaming different

 

[brandall10]

Presumably, to allow you to configure the dsp with the app would add significant software development cost, and I imagine doesn't really fit the lifestyle consumer they target. Atm they probably just hardcode the values (or set them during factory testing?)

For why no dirac I dont have an answer

At this point, adding PEQ would cost next to nothing. They're been the pioneer of this type of product for about 6 years now. I purchased Roon when it first came out simply to add this missing feature to the L50W.

Even a lowly $110 USB DAC - the Quedelix 5k, which surely has a fraction of the R&D cost, has this nailed. And Burchardt has auto-EQ with a freakin' smartphone that sells a comparatively tiny volume.

 

[KMO]

Come to think of it, the LS60 has dynamic compression for the bass depending on the volume. Would this cause issues with Dirac depending on how loud the test tones are played?

Yes it could affect the results, and that could still happen in any bass extension mode, if it's loud enough. It will just start happening at lower volumes for higher bass extensions.

But the same thing is true of lots of DSP subwoofers too (including KEF's KC62 and KF92).

So you'd want to calibrate with "normal level" test tones. The standard domestic 75dB tones should be well clear - the white paper suggests extended bass is uncompressed at 80dB, and compression below 50Hz is happening at 90dB.

Their Spinoramas are at 85dB, so I would imagine they're ensuring that level doesn't get messed with for optimum measurement, then start compression not much above that.

At this point, adding PEQ would cost next to nothing.

Jack Oclee-Brown confirmed in his interview with John Darko that absolutely there's no hardware capability issue with the current DSP platform being able to implement the filters for manual PEQ, or other automatic room correction, but it's software development time, and they're trying to balance effort spent offering things for power users with getting better results for normal users. I think he said that usage stats show that the majority of LS50 Wireless II owners never touch any of the sound tuning options. (Or even open the menu, he might have said).

So I'd bet they're probably prioritising some sort of automatic Dirac/Audyssey/RoomPerfect type solution that helps normal people with no clue about tweaking, but they seem like the sort of people that would be allowing manual tweakage on top of that. The sort of manual tweakage they're offering now is pretty high for a "simple" speaker (eg how many other products offer separate LPF and HPF for subwoofers, rather than a single value), so I'd expect that to carry through.

 

[samysound]

I heard the Reference 5 Meta, LS60 and Blade 1 Meta in the same room and in this order.

For met the biggest difference is that in the sound of the LS60 there was too much mid-high. Bass and mid sounded all right to me.
The Reference 5 Meta sounded very good but a bit dark (don't know how to explain it otherwise) a bit coloured in the low-mid's ( maybe the room or the amplifier that I heard).
Then the Blade 1 Meta, first idea it's a bit plain, until I realized that everything in the sound is there and nothing is coloured.

The tracks on the LS60 were played from a phone through Qobus, the tracks on the Blades were played from a laptop through a Hegel DAC and 2 Halcro Eclipse mono power amplifiers, the tracks on the Reference 5 were played from a laptop through a Hegel H590.

Of course, this is my subjective opinion and like I said in a room I do not know with 20 people in it and I definitely don't claim to have golden ears.
I never heard the LS50 Meta so I don't know if the LS60 has the same sound signature in the mid-high.

How large was the room you demoed in? I am wondering how the dynamic capability of the LS60 compares to other state of the art speakers in this similar price category: Revel F226Be, Genelec 8351B, etc...

 

[Reed]

Yes it could affect the results, and that could still happen in any bass extension mode, if it's loud enough. It will just start happening at lower volumes for higher bass extensions.

But the same thing is true of lots of DSP subwoofers too (including KEF's KC62 and KF92).

So you'd want to calibrate with "normal level" test tones. The standard domestic 75dB tones should be well clear - the white paper suggests extended bass is uncompressed at 80dB, and compression below 50Hz is happening at 90dB.

Their Spinoramas are at 85dB, so I would imagine they're ensuring that level doesn't get messed with for optimum measurement, then start compression not much above that.


Jack Oclee-Brown confirmed in his interview with John Darko that absolutely there's no hardware capability issue with the current DSP platform being able to implement the filters for manual PEQ, or other automatic room correction, but it's software development time, and they're trying to balance effort spent offering things for power users with getting better results for normal users. I think he said that usage stats show that the majority of LS50 Wireless II owners never touch any of the sound tuning options. (Or even open the menu, he might have said).

So I'd bet they're probably prioritising some sort of automatic Dirac/Audyssey/RoomPerfect type solution that helps normal people with no clue about tweaking, but they seem like the sort of people that would be allowing manual tweakage on top of that. The sort of manual tweakage they're offering now is pretty high for a "simple" speaker (eg how many other products offer separate LPF and HPF for subwoofers, rather than a single value), so I'd expect that to carry through.

This just popped today. I hope KEF have something ready to go soon regarding room correction.

Dirac and Dynaudio deliver studio-grade sound for new Focus series of high-end streaming speakers - Dirac

The Dynaudio Focus series becomes the first streaming speaker to feature Dirac’s breakthrough Dirac Live Room Correction solution. UPPSALA, SWEDEN, May 24, 2022 — Swedish...

www.dirac.com

 

[pablolie]

This just popped today. I hope KEF have something ready to go soon regarding room correction.

Dirac and Dynaudio deliver studio-grade sound for new Focus series of high-end streaming speakers - Dirac

The Dynaudio Focus series becomes the first streaming speaker to feature Dirac’s breakthrough Dirac Live Room Correction solution. UPPSALA, SWEDEN, May 24, 2022 — Swedish...

www.dirac.com

Important info on the Dynaudio release:

Pricing (RRP)
Focus 10: €5,000 / £4,399 / USD $5,500
Focus 30: €7,500 / £6,499 / USD $8,250
Focus 50: €10,000 / £8,699 / USD $11,000

They also say:

"..
There are three models: Focus 10 (a two-way stand-mount speaker), Focus 30 (a two-and-a-half-way floor-stander) and Focus 50 (a three-way floor-stander).
Here are some of the (many) highlights:
Class-leading versatility
Whether you’re starting from scratch after upgrading from a smaller system, or you’re building on your existing set-up, Focus fits in seamlessly.
Its built-in high-end streaming platform takes care of everything online, while coaxial and optical digital inputs and analogue connections mean a CD player and even a turntable can still sit front and centre alongside streaming services. There’s even a subwoofer output with trigger, Ethernet, and it’s Dirac Live-ready for power-user calibrators.
Want to go wireless with your TV? WiSA connectivity makes it a breeze. No cables needed.
Amazing user friendliness
Listen to what you want, how you want. Focus supports Spotify Connect, TIDAL Connect, Apple AirPlay 2, Google Chromecast, Qplay, UPnP, Netradio and Bluetooth. And it’s Roon Ready, too. If it’s streamable, Focus will play it.
It will auto-switch inputs depending on which source you want to use, it will turn on automatically when an input is connected, and it will even sense when the included magnetic Smart Grilles are applied – and adjust its EQ to compensate.
And if you don’t want to use your phone to control it after using the free Dynaudio set-up app, there’s a Bluetooth remote control included in the box.
Studio-grade performance
What goes in, comes out. Focus uses the same legendary Dynaudio driver technology (including the renowned Cerotar tweeter) and the same type of amplifiers the company uses in its professional studio reference monitors.
Then there’s the sealed-box design which, thanks to some sophisticated digital signal processing, delivers even tighter, deeper, more controlled bass performance. Users can also compensate independently for each speaker’s position in their room from within the app – meaning no sonic surprises when you’re setting them up. Wherever you’re setting them up.
The whole Focus family was measured in Jupiter, Dynaudio’s world-class measuring facility, and tuned by the same ears behind some of its most prestigious loudspeakers.
Clean Scandinavian design
Danish design is a synonym for ‘desirable’, and Focus is no exception. Its slim cabinets, available in four beautiful contemporary finishes (White High Gloss, Black High Gloss, Walnut Wood and Blonde Wood), are designed to blend in with real-life interior decor for those who’d rather not re-arrange their living-room around their speakers, or be distracted from their music or films by something that looks too outlandish.
Even the Dynaudio logo has been simplified, doubling as an integrated LED that tells you at a glance what the speaker is doing.
Outstanding craftmanship
Of course, Focus wouldn’t be a proper Dynaudio speaker if its build quality wasn’t jaw-dropping. Sturdy MDF cabinets, a long-life amp design and premium touches such as aluminium driver surrounds make it obvious that you own a high-end product.
.."

 

[Emlin]

Important info on the Dynaudio release:

Pricing (RRP)
Focus 10: €5,000 / £4,399 / USD $5,500
Focus 30: €7,500 / £6,499 / USD $8,250
Focus 50: €10,000 / £8,699 / USD $11,000

They also say:

"..
There are three models: Focus 10 (a two-way stand-mount speaker), Focus 30 (a two-and-a-half-way floor-stander) and Focus 50 (a three-way floor-stander).
Here are some of the (many) highlights:
Class-leading versatility
Whether you’re starting from scratch after upgrading from a smaller system, or you’re building on your existing set-up, Focus fits in seamlessly.
Its built-in high-end streaming platform takes care of everything online, while coaxial and optical digital inputs and analogue connections mean a CD player and even a turntable can still sit front and centre alongside streaming services. There’s even a subwoofer output with trigger, Ethernet, and it’s Dirac Live-ready for power-user calibrators.
Want to go wireless with your TV? WiSA connectivity makes it a breeze. No cables needed.
Amazing user friendliness
Listen to what you want, how you want. Focus supports Spotify Connect, TIDAL Connect, Apple AirPlay 2, Google Chromecast, Qplay, UPnP, Netradio and Bluetooth. And it’s Roon Ready, too. If it’s streamable, Focus will play it.
It will auto-switch inputs depending on which source you want to use, it will turn on automatically when an input is connected, and it will even sense when the included magnetic Smart Grilles are applied – and adjust its EQ to compensate.
And if you don’t want to use your phone to control it after using the free Dynaudio set-up app, there’s a Bluetooth remote control included in the box.
Studio-grade performance
What goes in, comes out. Focus uses the same legendary Dynaudio driver technology (including the renowned Cerotar tweeter) and the same type of amplifiers the company uses in its professional studio reference monitors.
Then there’s the sealed-box design which, thanks to some sophisticated digital signal processing, delivers even tighter, deeper, more controlled bass performance. Users can also compensate independently for each speaker’s position in their room from within the app – meaning no sonic surprises when you’re setting them up. Wherever you’re setting them up.
The whole Focus family was measured in Jupiter, Dynaudio’s world-class measuring facility, and tuned by the same ears behind some of its most prestigious loudspeakers.
Clean Scandinavian design
Danish design is a synonym for ‘desirable’, and Focus is no exception. Its slim cabinets, available in four beautiful contemporary finishes (White High Gloss, Black High Gloss, Walnut Wood and Blonde Wood), are designed to blend in with real-life interior decor for those who’d rather not re-arrange their living-room around their speakers, or be distracted from their music or films by something that looks too outlandish.
Even the Dynaudio logo has been simplified, doubling as an integrated LED that tells you at a glance what the speaker is doing.
Outstanding craftmanship
Of course, Focus wouldn’t be a proper Dynaudio speaker if its build quality wasn’t jaw-dropping. Sturdy MDF cabinets, a long-life amp design and premium touches such as aluminium driver surrounds make it obvious that you own a high-end product.
.."

Worth a separate thread?

 

[samysound]

Worth a separate thread?

looks like there is one already

Focus - new active Dynaudio speakers

https://www.dynaudio.com/home-audio/focus Sounds even more interesting than the new Kefs.

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[harkpabst]

Yes it could affect the results, and that could still happen in any bass extension mode, if it's loud enough. It will just start happening at lower volumes for higher bass extensions.

But the same thing is true of lots of DSP subwoofers too (including KEF's KC62 and KF92).

So you'd want to calibrate with "normal level" test tones. The standard domestic 75dB tones should be well clear - the white paper suggests extended bass is uncompressed at 80dB, and compression below 50Hz is happening at 90dB.

I was too lazy to try and properly digitize the curves from the white paper but I (somewhat sloppily) layered the "less bass extension" curve from Figure 28 over the iBX curves (Figure 17).

Even taking the inherent imprecision into account the "high listening levels" curve and the "less bass extension mode" curve are close to identical.

I conclude that in "less bass extension mode" results of externally applied room correction will indeed not be affected if the level used for calibration is roughly below 95 dB. That certainly qualifies as higher than normal levels for test tones, so by all practical means there shouldn't be a problem. Less bass extension mode seems like a logical choice for me when integration one or two subs.

Of course, integrated room correction would be much better than anything working for one specific input only. I admit that I personally have never used Dirac myself. I tried using Pioneer's MCACC (the non-pro version) and to put it socially compliant the automatic setup system didn't deliver (maybe just because of the toy hardware provided, but I can't tell for sure). I also admit that I'm kind of spoiled by Lyngdorf's RoomPerfect. It comes with rather quality measuring equipment out-of-the-box and (more importantly) it simply works. If there is anything coming from KEF regarding room correction in the future I wouldn't be surprised if they went a similar route. Who knows what this USB A service connector might be capable of.

 

[NYfan2]

How large was the room you demoed in? I am wondering how the dynamic capability of the LS60 compares to other state of the art speakers in this similar price category: Revel F226Be, Genelec 8351B, etc...

It was a moderate size listening room.
Here is a photo, the room is a little bit more then 1/3 longer then you can see on the photo.
It was the first time that I was in this room so I cannot judge how other loudspeakers will sound in this room.

 

[harkpabst]

Doesn't even look too moderate by old world standards.

 

[nothingman]

While perhaps more severely controlled by DSP in this case, isn’t the non-linear low frequency extension we see in the KEF graph just your basic dynamic compression, as seen in most speakers and in tests like Erin’s? A lot of speakers he has tested drop off linear as early as the bump from 76db baseline to 86db, then go completely off the rails at 96 or 102db. Outliers like the JBLs with 15” woofers are linear across the range to 105db.

Point is, this stuff is usually happening in any sub-sat combo, right? The LS60 Wireless used with a sub would be no different, and if you cross them at the usual 80ish hz then they’re basically linear on that chart up to ~106db.

 

[harkpabst]

... isn’t the non-linear low frequency extension we see in the KEF graph just your basic dynamic compression, as seen in most speakers and in tests like Erin’s?

No, absolutely not.

This is an active reduction of bass extension EQ, build in on purpose. KEF invented a name for it, iBX = intelligent bass extension. The basic idea is that at high or very high volumes the lowest bass will not be missed that much. They actively use a psychoacoustic effect here. It's not compression that "just happens" because the speaker can't go any louder.

 

[samysound]

It was a moderate size listening room.
Here is a photo, the room is a little bit more then 1/3 longer then you can see on the photo.
It was the first time that I was in this room so I cannot judge how other loudspeakers will sound in this room.

View attachment 208744

Oh wow, looks like a pretty large room!