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JBL 4367 review by Erin

Vladimir Filevski

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….and all the above haughtiness and mockery came crashing down when the JTR was mentioned and he had to admit it may be equal or better at a far, far lower price.
Not quite. As I already mentioned - it is comparing apples to oranges. JBL 4367 is 2-way, with 15" woofer. I asked if there is comparable competitor with 15" plus horn, but with lower price - and there is not! JTR is 3-way, with two 12" woofers. One big apple compared to two smaller oranges.
Measurement wise - JTR is at least equal, and maybe with better midrange, but with potentially problematic tweeter. All of that for much lower price.
PS
Believe it or not, there are universally accepted aesthetic standards. Otherwise - what on earth are they teaching in the art/design academies?
 

pio

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Not quite. As I already mentioned - it is comparing apples to oranges. JBL 4367 is 2-way, with 15" woofer. I asked if there is comparable competitor with 15" plus horn, but with lower price - and there is not! JTR is 3-way, with two 12" woofers. One big apple compared to two smaller oranges.
Measurement wise - JTR is at least equal, and maybe with better midrange, but with potentially problematic tweeter. All of that for much lower price.
PS
Believe it or not, there are universally accepted aesthetic standards. Otherwise - what on earth are they teaching in the art/design academies?
Personally, I love the way the 4367 looks, but I have a dedicated room, In the home HT we have F208s.

On JTRs, I am a fan but what Erin measured was disappointing. https://pierreaubert.github.io/spinorama/speakers/JTR Noesis 210ht/ErinsAudioCorner/index_eac.html
 

Newman

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Hey guys, may i make an apology to the this thread's readers ....
I feel i got haughty in pushback to many of the quotes just posted.
I overstated the simplicity, the ease of building such a fine speaker, and the improvements i think may be on the table.
My bad....don't mean to go in to places like that...
Don’t worry, you were drawn in by the absolutist tone. Perfectly understandable, to stand up against an extreme position by moving more to the other extreme than where your true personal position lies.

Agree, it’s not easy to make a speaker that measures superbly and can deliver huge dynamics while controlling distortion. Kudos to JBL for doing that. Except the 4367 price is not a necessary part of that equation. Nor is its spec, nor are its parameters, eg 2-way, 15”.

Let’s start by being up-front: it needs subs if, as I expect would be the case for audio hobbyists willing to spend US$16,500 (*) on the front two speakers, one is wanting that superb measurement/ huge dynamics/ controlled distortion to extend down to 20 Hz. But the 4367 is not designed for 20 Hz, nor should it be. It’s no secret that reference grade deep bass for home playback is best served by bass drivers in different positions to the mid-high drivers, and in multiple positions. So let them handle the bottom two octaves.

But that means the 4367 is a kind of no-mans-land speaker: hand over everything below 80 Hz to subs that will sound better in that range, and the money spent on the 4367 to make it deliver what it can between 40-80 Hz is wasted. And the house of cards starts to tumble: if a 15” driver is wasted, then a smaller bass driver could be used, which in turn means a higher crossover frequency could be used, which in turn means a smaller horn and less super-spec driver for it….and that could all be done while maintaining that superb measurement/ huge dynamics/ controlled distortion, smaller box, covering the design and manufacturing costs and still make a regulation profit, and retail for, what? $2k max per unit?

In principle, your objection has merit and needs no apology. Cheers

(*) and more outside the US, eg AU$30,000 down under, that’s US$22k
 
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changer

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There are plenty of speakers which are not following the rationale to, as they cannot reach the 20 Hz mark anyway, leave everything to the subs. This is also not a bad thing, as at least for some of the troubled by the room spectrum, there is then already 'multiple subs' if only one separate sub is added to the speakers, smoothing bass response. Then there is possibly more to bass than just the number. If bandwidth cannot be replaced, and noticeably missing, yet mid bass might very well benefit a lot from a bigger diaphragm: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...a-impressions-and-in-room-measurements.23034/
And finally, what is not to forget is how the big midwoofer helps to control directivity down to a frequency domain which would require cardioid arrangements with smaller woofers.
 

Jon AA

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But that means the 4367 is a kind of no-mans-land speaker: hand over everything below 80 Hz to subs that will sound better in that range, and the money spent on the 4367 to make it deliver what it can between 40-80 Hz is wasted. And the house of cards starts to tumble: if a 15” driver is wasted,
I would pick a nit with this. Just because one uses subs, doesn't mean the 15" driver is "wasted." A whole lot of "bass" happens above 80 Hz. Much of what people feel as bass "impact" or "slam" at live events comes from content over 80 Hz, even over 100 Hz. It's one of the aspects that may cause people to subjectively say speakers that can do a better job of replicating this effect sound more "dynamic" or closer to a "live event" than less capable speakers. Especially when the application is anything other than a small room and a close listening distance. I would contend a high sensitivity 15" driver will typically do a better job of this than a smaller driver.

if a 15” driver is wasted, then a smaller bass driver could be used, which in turn means a higher crossover frequency could be used, which in turn means a smaller horn and less super-spec driver for it….
So basically, if one is using subs he might as well shrink the main speakers to bookshelf size? Yes, nice results can be had with bookshelves/small towers and subs, I won't dispute that, but I won't agree the same results are achieved as a with set of larger and more capable main speakers, especially in a room of any decent size.

Even ignoring SPL capability/dynamics, a smaller driver in a smaller box with a smaller horn will typically mean directivity control doesn't start until a higher frequency. People who are fans of this type of design are often a bit obsessed with getting directivity control as low in frequency as possible, and for this type of speaker that means size is needed.

Getting back to dynamics, one way you could think of a speaker like this is that it's actually a more "elegant" solution that a bookshelf sitting on top of a mid-bass module. It already has one built in.

Now would I spend $25K for three of these for my LCR? No, I'm one of those who went DIY for about 10% of that. Luckily I was able to avoid the new resident officer of the Interior Decoration Police, who would have surely locked me up for "violating norms." But I'm glad JBL makes speakers such as this for those who are more fearful of the IDP and willing to pay for a completed product. DIY isn't for everybody.
 

Newman

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I would pick a nit with this. Just because one uses subs, doesn't mean the 15" driver is "wasted." A whole lot of "bass" happens above 80 Hz.
So basically, if one is using subs he might as well shrink the main speakers to bookshelf size?
Show me where I said any such thing.
  • "A straw man (sometimes written as strawman) is a form of argument and an informal fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument, whereas the real subject of the argument was not addressed or refuted, but instead replaced with a false one. A common form of setting up such a straw man is by use of the notorious formula "so what you're saying is ..... ?", converting the argument to be challenged into an obviously absurd distortion. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man"."-Wikipedia
I said, "a smaller bass driver could be used (with subs below 80 Hz)". Smaller is not minuscule, so let's not play reductio ad absurdum. A 12", 10", or even 8" pro audio mid bass of substance can deliver vast impact or slam above 80 Hz, to the point where the home audio listener runs out of the room with hands over ears. A 15" is indeed wasted. The smaller driver can be crossed to the HF horn at a higher frequency, putting less demands on the horn's performance spec, and the house of cards I described tumbles.

cheers
 

Vladimir Filevski

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A 12", 10", or even 8" pro audio mid bass of substance can deliver vast impact or slam above 80 Hz, ...
A 15" is indeed wasted. The smaller driver can be crossed to the HF horn at a higher frequency, putting less demands on the horn's performance spec, and the house of cards I described tumbles.

That is exactly what many loudspeaker manufacturers, including JTR Speakers and JBL, are trying to avoid, by using large compression driver and horn. Increasing crossover frequency delegates all-important midrange duties to the midbass drivers, which has its own consequences. Let see what will happen to the midrange distortion with smaller 2x10" drivers, per your suggestion:

JTR Noesis 210HT (2022 Model) Harmonic Distortion 96dB @ 1m.png


This is measurement of JTR Noesis 210HT, which has two 10" midbas drivers in D'Appolito configuration, mated to a high-quality compression driver at about 1 kHz. Note the high distortion (approaching 3%) between 250 Hz and 700 Hz - courtesy of smaller 2x10" drivers.

Now compare that with the measurement of JBL 4367, with his "wasted" 15" midbass mated to big compression driver at rather low 650 Hz:

JBL 4367 Harmonic Distortion (96dB @ 1m).png


In the same 250 Hz - 700 Hz frequency range distortion is below 0.25% !!!

Low crossover frequency has many benefits, but requires very big compression driver and horn - like D2 used in JBL 4367, or big coaxial mid/high compression driver BMS 4590 used in JTR Noesis 212RT.
Oh, and requires two 12" bass drivers, or one "wasted" 15" bass. ;)

After all this, I think you learned a lesson that 15" bass plus big horn is not a bad idea.
 
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fluid

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A 15" is indeed wasted. The smaller driver can be crossed to the HF horn at a higher frequency, putting less demands on the horn's performance spec, and the house of cards I described tumbles.

cheers

Keeping the crossover low and the directivity high is why the 15" driver is used. Very good speakers could be made from smaller drivers and a higher crossover point but they would be quite different in directivity.

This is measurement of JTR Noesis 210HT, which has two 10" midbas drivers in D'Appolito configuration, mated to a high-quality compression driver at about 1 kHz. Note the high distortion (approaching 3%) between 250 Hz and 700 Hz - courtesy of smaller 2x10" drivers.
The manufacturer quotes 700Hz on their site and the DI dip occurs just below that frequency in the measurements.
  • "Horn loading down to 700hz (crossover point)"

The increased distortion seems to come from both the woofer and tweeter in that model.

 

Vladimir Filevski

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The manufacturer quotes 700Hz on their site and the DI dip occurs just below that frequency in the measurements.
  • "Horn loading down to 700hz (crossover point)"
The increased distortion seems to come from both the woofer and tweeter in that model.
Directivity plot is influenced by the interaction between two 10" drivers also, so it can be misleading about the actual crossover point.
Manufacturer may quote 700 Hz crossover point, but deep notch at about 1 kHz in the vertical off-axis SPL plot tells us otherwise:

JTR 210HT_SPL Vertical.png


Moreover, the B&C DE990TN compression driver used in JTR Noesis 210HT, although very capable, can not reproduce 700 Hz at required SPL levels without excessive distortion, so it must be crossed at 1 kHz.
 
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fluid

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Directivity plot is influenced by the interaction between two 10" drivers also, so it can be misleading about the actual crossover point.
Manufacturer may quote 700 Hz crossover point, but deep notch at about 1 kHz in the vertical off-axis SPL plot tells us otherwise:
Indeed it is not so easy to spot which null corresponds to what as there are quite a few.

This is the vertical directivity of two 10 inch drivers a similar distance apart as the 210. Even 700Hz seems too high for a good match.

VituixCAD Directivity (ver, pos front).png
 

Jon AA

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  • "A straw man...-Wikipedia

My apologies, I forgot nobody has a sense of humor anymore. I thought it obvious the word "bookshelf" was a bit tongue and cheek, especially since I included "small towers" with them in the very next sentence. Though I wish you'd spent more time addressing the technical aspects of the discussion.

Since I agree JBL left some sensitivity on the table by tuning the box lower than would be optimum for sub-only use, I'll give you that with a higher tune on the box and a 12" the overall end result wouldn't be hugely compromised output-wise, but that's a judgement call. And since their target customers wouldn't buy them since they'd sound like garbage without a sub, it's hard for us to say the 15" is "wasted" for output capability as it allows the sensitivity/output of a higher tuned 12" but also sounds OK without a sub which is needed for their target customers.

A 10", 8"? No. It's a completely different speaker by then. Been there, done that. Pick pretty much any line of high sensitivity pro audio woofers, from the same brand in the same line with the same intended purpose, and go down the line in size from 15 to 12 to 10 to 8" and you see a significant hit in efficiency and power handling with each size reduction. And when you properly design a box for each of them in order to maintain as much of that efficiency as possible, you generally end up with a smaller box with a higher tune and a lower output capability.

Remember to properly integrate with a sub at 80 Hz you need meaningful output well below that, so at some point this becomes an issue if you let the box tuning get too high--and yes, that does become an issue with the smaller high sensitivity woofers.

I've built a pair of very similar speakers (in concept) with a very high efficiency 8" pro woofer and a "full sized" waveguide (for that driver size) as you can see in my avatar. And yes, they're fantastic speakers given how much was (not) spent on them. I'm not sure it can be done much better from the standpoint of efficiency/output/directivity.

But they are what they are. They're a little speaker (yes, I'd call them "bookshelf sized"), a very sensitive high output speaker for their size, but a little speaker in the end. They certainly aren't mid-bass monsters (though if mounted in a baffle wall would be fine for their size), and while output would be adequate for use as an LCR in a small room, personally I'd choose a larger speaker for a medium and especially larger room. When compared with my "big" speakers, there just really is no comparison at output levels needed for a large room. The bigger speakers are just a much better tool for the job.

A 12", 10", or even 8" pro audio mid bass of substance can deliver vast impact or slam above 80 Hz, to the point where the home audio listener runs out of the room with hands over ears.

I guess you've never experienced a half way decent home theater.... One needs to be very careful generalizing about how much SPL "home audio listeners" need. On this site we have people reading from closet-sized dorm rooms to giant mansions and everything in between. People who listen to dynamic content (largely orchestral recordings and movies) who want a realistic experience will have much different output requirements than those who don't. So, to leave personal SPL tolerances out of it, one can look to some industry standards for guidance.

Dolby specs 105 dB at 2/3 the length of the room for each of the LCR by themselves. Not peak, but sustained for 2 hours...with 3 dB amp headroom in reserve. Is that a higher bar than most people need for "good sound?" Probably, but it's not for me to tell them that. It's a pretty important bar that gives us one point of reference. I'm certainly not going to tell somebody there is nothing to be gained by going bigger from a system that can't even come close to it. And personally, I find listening to classical music at a level where the "quiet parts" approach the noise floor of the room enough you're left with a crappy SNR just isn't much fun.

All that's only addressing dynamics/output capability. You completely ignored directivity. A speaker that can control the directivity 500-700 Hz lower than another is a completely different speaker at any output level. Without judging whether it's right or wrong, if the user wants directivity control to the lower frequencies with this design, a smaller speaker simply doesn't give it to him as others have addressed above.

As I stated before, the 4367 certainly isn't a perfect speaker. But it does do some things many other speakers don't, or at least don't do as well. For those who are looking for those things, there are a whole lot of worse choices.
 

crazycloud

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My post was about undeniable truth that there are universally accepted aesthetic standards.
Bollocks. Some of us simply don't care. If I liked how the 4367 sounded, I wouldn't care if they came in unfinished mdf. As a matter of fact, my last speakers just spent nearly a decade this way.
 

Vladimir Filevski

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You may don't care (much) about the aesthetic of loudspeakers (if they are sounding good), but even you have to admit - there are some loudspeakers which to your eye are more beautiful than other (don't try to deny this - it will be bollocks indeed). And I bet most of those more beautiful designs (according to you) will be accepted by others as beautiful. That is the definition of universally accepted aesthetic standards.
 
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Digby

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Bollocks. Some of us simply don't care. If I liked how the 4367 sounded, I wouldn't care if they came in unfinished mdf. As a matter of fact, my last speakers just spent nearly a decade this way.
I don't mean to sound rude, but I reckon I have a pretty good chance of correctly guessing your marital status.
 

Digby

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Marriage can induce in a man, a distinct appreciation for aesthetics, that he never knew he had in him ;)
 

Digby

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Hey, I am smart, my mother tells me so, and she never lies, so there :D.
 
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crazycloud

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I don't mean to sound rude, but I reckon I have a pretty good chance of correctly guessing your marital status.
Widower, and even when she was still here it didn't matter much as she also viewed the living room, as a room the family lived in, not as a showpiece to impress others. My hobbies and interests were important to her, because they were important to me and there were all sorts of systems in the room during our lives together, some factory, many DIY. Plus an upright and a baby grand, multiple electronic keyboards, several guitars and basses and amps and FX for them, sheet music, large numbers of LPs and CDs, surfboards and a half a dozen dogs.

It's a cheap shot, but I never had to Markle myself to enjoy what I wanted. Perhaps you do.
but even you have to admit - there are some loudspeakers which to your eye are more beautiful than other (don't try to deny this - it will be bollocks indeed).
Sure.
And I bet most of those more beautiful designs (according to you) will be accepted by others as beautiful.
And I bet you'd be very wrong on a good proportion of them. It was the 'universality' of you comment I thought was a lot of crap.
 
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