Is transient response the most important thing for the perceived audio quality in a system ?

[dasdoing]

I would simply rather compare and overlay the actual measured response to its extrapolated “minimum phase” version.

I enjoy that. It's a good approach to observe the outcomes of phase correction.

 

[dualazmak]

It would be interesting to try and apply all pass filters to some of these test tracks -- possibly even to try and simulate/convolve it with a phase plug horn model that's actually "time smearing" as well -- and see if people can hear a difference via Foobar ABX plugin. The former would be much simpler, though, to create. Ideally, the system used to listen to the tracks is linear phase already as well for easier critical listening e.g. headphones.

Yes, I essentially agree with you.
If you would be seriously interested in complete intact tracks of Sony Super Audio Check CD (1983), please simply PM me writing your wish.

 

[dasdoing]

It would be interesting to try and apply all pass filters to some of these test tracks

We can generate woofers and tweeters in Rephase and simply incorporate them in REW.

So you can fabricate any "speaker" with otherwise flawless attributes.

the audio can be convolved with the exported impulse response (IR) of this.

 

[dualazmak]

Let me add just one more; Track-26 Passive Sound Check of Sony Super Audio Check CD.

please be careful to reduce playback gain/volume for the first time to listen to it.

Caution and Reminder:
Even though I refer to my YouTube video/audio clip in this post, I cannot guarantee its sound quality since I know little about YouTube's audio codec/compression, and furthermore I know nothing about your internet access environments.

This is a rare combination of Japanese drums and “Tsugaru shamisen”. All of them have very passive transient sounds, and the check point is how sharply these transient sounds can be reproduced.

If you would be seriously interested in complete intact tracks of Sony Super Audio Check CD (1983), please simply PM me writing your wish.

 

[jsrtheta]

Could you elaborate on your question?

What does it even mean to say “phase response is audible” or “not audible”?

Did you listen/watch the video I posted and how it can be argued either way depending on the test design?

This has been tested many, many times. Many different ways.

 

[Neuro]

Is transient response the most important thing for the perceived audio quality in a system?​

NO!

If there are no objective distorting factors in the physical and psychological dimensions, there will never be any perceived problems.

It´s very simple in the physical dimension,
- audible distortion products in the broadest sense and
- the mix of direct sound and reflected sound
are the very most crucial variables for the best-perceived sound experience in the psychological dimension.

The audible physical distortion, in the objective physical dimension, includes a nonlinear frequency curve, audible compression, THD, IMD, audible phase errors, and other audible distortions.

The perceived psychological distortion is created in the objective mix of direct sound and reflections. This distortion is perceived in the listening position delivering a subjective distortion relative to the original sound event. The audible physical distortion is an important subset of psychological distortion.

 

[Geert]

In any way, Bone Conduction should not be ignored especially in hearing high-gain very-high-Fq sharp-transient

There's a ton of research on bone conduction. Conclusion is that for HiFi applications bone conduction via transmission through air is totally irrelevant. Bone conduction only works under water or when attaching a transmitter to the head.

If you don't agree please include links to relevant research papers.

 

[dualazmak]

Conclusion is that for HiFi applications bone conduction via transmission through air is totally irrelevant.

Do you mean all of the air-conduction plus bone-conduction hybrid headset, headphone, in-ear earbuds are not HiFi applications/gears, and therefore they should be excluded from our current discussion on this thread?

One of my points is such hybrid hearing gears (regardless of HiFi or not) may affect differently on "transient sound hearing sensations" in comparison with ordinary air-conduction-only listening. Here, I would like dare not going into definition of HiFi, though.

 

[Geert]

Do you mean all of the air-conduction plus bone-conduction hybrid headset, headphone, in-ear earbuds are not HiFi applications/gears, and therefore they should be excluded from our current discussion on this thread?

No, they are covered by:

Bone conduction only works under water or when attaching a transmitter to the head.

But following statement could give the impression it's also relevant for normal loudspeakers:

I assume that "bone conduction" too would be a matter of consideration for "transient hearing", in listening to this kind of high-energy (high-gain) high-Fq sharp-transient sound; of course we need nice HiFi tweeters plus excellent super-tweeters, though.

 

[dualazmak]

Hello OP @tangband,

Although quite belated, I just note my own confusion on the thread title.

Would you please clarify/define what is "the perceived audio quality in a system"?

My participation on this thread has been based on my understanding (or misunderstanding) of the thread title as to be "our subjective hearing sensation" for passive/transient sounds (at our usual listening position) given by our home audio setup including room acoustic environments.

 

[dualazmak]

But following statement could give the impression it's also relevant for normal loudspeakers:

OK, I got your point. I essentially agree with you.

It is only my naive speculation (so I wrote "assume") that in near-field desktop (HiFi) listening setup with excellent tweeters and/or excellent super-tweeters, air-to-bone conduction could possibly be involved especially in high-gain High-Fq transient sounds; for which at present I have no evidence nor peer-reviewed paper (I have not yet done intensive literature search).

I know several papers of the still unauthorized/non-validated Oohashi Theory (Oohashi Hypersonic Effect) on audibility of 20 kHz - 30 kHz transient sound, though. Even in his theory, the involvement of bone-conduction would be quite suspicious, as you may agree.

 

[dasdoing]

What about speaker compression? It takes a minimum of two measurements to detect it.

let's take an extreme example. imagine what this does to the transients

 

[Tangband]

Hello OP @tangband,

Although quite belated, I just note my own confusion on the thread title.

Would you please clarify/define what is "the perceived audio quality in a system"?

My participation on this thread has been based on my understanding (or misunderstanding) of the thread title as to be "our subjective hearing sensation" for passive/transient sounds (at our usual listening position) given by our home audio setup including room acoustic environments.

Yes thats correct.
It seems that the very first sound ( transient ) from a flute or acoustic guitar makes the caracter of the instruments timbre and also maybe the perceived pitch ?
Take away the first 0.1 second of the tone and it sounds almost like another instrument.
This makes me think that a good transient response from the speakers are important.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Do you mean something like the ff?

View attachment 287162

View attachment 287163


"Time smear" from (what I assume is) a large compression diaphragm horn with phase plug and abrupt exit angles may look more like this:
*edit: re-directs now to correct pdf link

View attachment 287165

View attachment 287166 View attachment 287167

A case of "pictures say more than 1000 words". Thumbs up!

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Yes thats correct.
It seems that the very first sound ( transient ) from a flute or acoustic guitar makes the caracter of the instruments timbre and also maybe the perceived pitch ?
Take away the first 0.1 second of the tone and it sounds almost like another instrument.
This makes me think that a good transient response from the speakers are important.

…. And that “first sound” is perfectly represented by the Fourier series of the frequency components a speaker can linearly reproduce (flat FR to 20khz). Please have a look how Fourier works as I get the impression that you still haven’t fully understood it, because otherwise you wouldn’t continue to ask these questions.

(BTW. Have a look how “steep” (eg dB/us) real music signals really are (let’s exclude the electronic music) and what would be the highest frequency component needed to accurately reproduce this “steepness”?)

 

[Mr. Widget]

Let's rename "transient response" to "1980's JBL L112-style punchy bass."

Are you saying that the Bluehorn has that same kind of classic JBL L112-style bass? [in a good way?]

This punchy bass is something I've *felt* at the symphony with percussion instruments and I *know* that it has to be distortion/phase, etc. I do think my Bose 901 Series VI has some of that same *feeling* as well.

Definitely not. The "classic" JBL bass is an exaggeration that can be enjoyable or annoying depending on source content and room placement. The Bluehorn was about as far away from that as I could imagine. Other than its deep extension it didn't draw attention to itself. Listening to familiar tracks with VLF content the bass was deeper and subjectively "clearer" (less group delay) than I was used to.

 

[GXAlan]

Definitely not. The "classic" JBL bass is an exaggeration that can be enjoyable or annoying depending on source content and room placement. The Bluehorn was about as far away from that as I could imagine. Other than its deep extension it didn't draw attention to itself. Listening to familiar tracks with VLF content the bass was deeper and subjectively "clearer" (less group delay) than I was used to.

Got it. I was confused about the “transient” language.

 

[Mr. Widget]

Got it. I was confused about the “transient” language.

Right... perhaps I should have talked about its PRaT.

All silliness aside, this is a good example of how using language to describe audio is so problematic!

 

[MAB]

Yes thats correct.
It seems that the very first sound ( transient ) from a flute or acoustic guitar makes the caracter of the instruments timbre and also maybe the perceived pitch ?
Take away the first 0.1 second of the tone and it sounds almost like another instrument.
This makes me think that a good transient response from the speakers are important.

Transient response is 100% coved by frequency response. This was answered starting with the first response to your OP. Which is why you should get speakers with good frequency response.

If a speaker can reproduce a harpsicord forwards, it can do so backwards just the same. It has the same spectrum per Fourier, just different time ordering which is unimportant to the speakers.

Your flute example however is non-physical.

You got good answers starting from the first, but it seems you are resisting the physics.

 

[Tangband]

Transient response is 100% coved by frequency response. This was answered starting with the first response to your OP. Which is why you should get speakers with good frequency response.

If a speaker can reproduce a harpsicord forwards, it can do so backwards just the same. It has the same spectrum per Fourier, just different time ordering which is unimportant to the speakers.

Your flute example however is non-physical.

You got good answers starting from the first, but it seems you are resisting the physics.

No, Im learning .
If we talk psychoacoustics , how an instruments character is defined by the brain/ear, is it good enough with a flat frequency response and good directivity then ? Perfect sound forever as Phillips once stated ?
Do you also think that all amplifiers sound the same, If they have a flat frequency response, low output impedance and low distortion ? Iˋm not sure - what about the ability to give a lot of power/current in short transients ?