Is transient response the most important thing for the perceived audio quality in a system ?

[GXAlan]

No, Im learning .
If we talk psycoacoustics , how an instruments caracter is defined by the brain/ear, is it good enough with a flat frequency response and good directivity then ?

Yes "but" ...

Yes, frequency and directivity capture all of the first order effects of the instrument character. Distortion (both THD and IMD) can contribute along with compression where the volume increases that are recorded aren't delivered linearly. These characteristics can all be measured, of course, and these play a smaller role than the two items you identified.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

No, Im learning .
If we talk psychoacoustics , how an instruments character is defined by the brain/ear, is it good enough with a flat frequency response and good directivity then ? Perfect sound forever as Phillips once stated ?
Do you also think that all amplifiers sound the same, If they have a flat frequency response, low output impedance and low distortion ? Iˋm not sure - what about the ability to give a lot of power/current in short transients ?

The “flatter” the FR of an amp / speaker etc the more precise any “transient” are reproduced eg worst case “Square Wave” with its infinitely short rise/fall time (Again see Fourier).

Maybe start here (or if this is too simple pick one which meets your level of understanding)

Fourier Series

Sine and cosine waves can make other functions! Here two different sine waves add together to make a new wave: Try sin(x)+sin(2x) at the...

www.mathsisfun.com

Or here

You don’t need to bring in Psychoacoustics or Room Effects as a further complication at this point. The math will already show you that you are chasing ghosts.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

No, Im learning .
If we talk psychoacoustics , how an instruments character is defined by the brain/ear, is it good enough with a flat frequency response and good directivity then ? Perfect sound forever as Phillips once stated ?
Do you also think that all amplifiers sound the same, If they have a flat frequency response, low output impedance and low distortion ? Iˋm not sure - what about the ability to give a lot of power/current in short transients ?

If you imagine your speakers frequency response trace as if it's made out of infinite numbers of points which represents each a specific frequency.
You can then imagine how each point represents it's own transient, so to speak. If the speaker was unable to respond proper to the frequency it would show.

If the speaker in question has problems with reproduction of a specific frequency or range of frequencies due to various reasons, it would show up in the frequency response trace as dips or peaks.

That's my layman understanding of the concept. Maybe it helps, maybe it doesn't..

IR to amplifier current delivery etc. that's another topic I think. One that exists in the other end of the system.

 

[Tangband]

If you imagine your speakers frequency response trace as if it's made out of infinite numbers of points which represents each a specific frequency.
You can then imagine how each point represents it's own transient, so to speak. If the speaker was unable to respond proper to the frequency it would show.

If the speaker in question has problems with reproduction of a specific frequency or range of frequencies due to various reasons, it would show up in the frequency response trace as dips or peaks.

That's my layman understanding of the concept. Maybe it helps, maybe it doesn't..

IR to amplifier current delivery etc. that's another topic I think. One that exists in the other end of the system.

The amplifier must respond with power very quickly , forcing the cone of the speaker to move and not blurring the transients. Or ?

 

[Killingbeans]

@Tangband I think we need to start from scratch... How would you define a transient in music?

 

[Tangband]

@Tangband I think we need to start from scratch... How would you define a transient in music?

To explain in technical terms, I guess the first 0.05 seconds of the beginning of a tone from different instruments, a flute, piano , a guitar chord or a cymbal crash. A sudden fortefortissimo ( fff ) chord from a grand piano can have a very dynamic attack, reaching from almost silent to 105 dB near the strings. A drumset is even more dynamic, 130 dB at the loudest transients.

How Many Decibels (dB) Loud is a Drum Set and Cymbals? | PickMyDrumSet.com

It's common knowledge that drums are loud, but just how loud are they in relation to other things? As a drummer and and audio engineer,…

pickmydrumset.com

Sound - Frequency, Amplitude, Wavelength | Britannica

Sound - Frequency, Amplitude, Wavelength: Fundamental to the analysis of any musical tone is the spectral analysis, or Fourier analysis, of a steady-state wave. According to the Fourier theorem, a steady-state wave is composed of a series of sinusoidal components whose frequencies are those of...

www.britannica.com

 

[MAB]

No, Im learning .

Indeed. And the idea of transients, and Fourier's theorem are not always obvious.

If we talk psychoacoustics , how an instruments character is defined by the brain/ear, is it good enough with a flat frequency response and good directivity then ? Perfect sound forever as Phillips once stated ?

Very true. I think your harpsicord example is a good illustration of what your speakers and electronics are capable of vs. how you hear... Fourier says that playing the track forwards vs. backwards makes no difference to the speakers and electronics. Both forward and backward play have exactly the same 'transients', i.e. Fourier components! There are no 'attacks' or 'decays' that exist playing reverse vs. playing forward. Your speakers don't care either way. The transients area all there but the ear and brain hear much different sounds; that's the psychoacoustics part!!!

Do you also think that all amplifiers sound the same, If they have a flat frequency response, low output impedance and low distortion ? Iˋm not sure - what about the ability to give a lot of power/current in short transients ?

There are several things all at the same time here...
If flat frequency response, both amps are not driven to distortion and have reasonable baseline distortion, then yes they sound the same. This has been shown many times under controlled conditions, and I certainly can't tell the difference in my blind listenning. I'm pretty sure I can't tell the difference between a Levinson, a Futterman, and a Pioneer receiver. See the attached famous amp test for example...

By the way, flat FR implies reasonably low output impedance. That being said, this damping factor thing and some of the odd ideas that spring from the amp's output impedance also is a bit
Running out power is distortion, plain and simple. In that case get more efficient speakers, or more power, etc...

 

[Killingbeans]

To explain in technical terms, I guess the first 0.05 seconds of the beginning of a tone from different instruments, a flute, piano , a guitar chord or a cymbal crash. A sudden fortefortissimo ( fff ) chord from a grand piano can have a very dynamic attack, reaching from almost silent to 105 dB near the strings. A drumset is even more dynamic, 130 dB at the loudest transients.

How Many Decibels (dB) Loud is a Drum Set and Cymbals? | PickMyDrumSet.com

It's common knowledge that drums are loud, but just how loud are they in relation to other things? As a drummer and and audio engineer,…

pickmydrumset.com

Sound - Frequency, Amplitude, Wavelength | Britannica

Sound - Frequency, Amplitude, Wavelength: Fundamental to the analysis of any musical tone is the spectral analysis, or Fourier analysis, of a steady-state wave. According to the Fourier theorem, a steady-state wave is composed of a series of sinusoidal components whose frequencies are those of...

www.britannica.com

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the shorter a tone burst is, the lower it's loudness is perceived and the harder it is to identify it as an actual tone.

I imagine that a 50ms "violent" tone will a best be perceived as a faint click. I could be wrong, but what you precive as a transient is most likely a comparison of 'before' and 'after' and doesn't really have anyting to do with the transition between them.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

The amplifier must respond with power very quickly , forcing the cone of the speaker to move and not blurring the transients. Or ?

… and the “accuracy” of that “quickness” is defined by the highest frequency (bandwidth limit) the speaker can “flatly” reproduce. Look at the terms of the Fourier series of the “worst” (most challenging) transient for a speaker ie a square wave. Again, the “flatter” the FR the more accurate any transient is reproduced.

Or another example. Listen to a 20khz sine wave and a 20khz square wave (and if you can’t hear 20khz, I can’t, then pick a lower frequency you just can hear eg 15khz. Hear a difference? Have a look again at the Fourier series for 20khz square wave - what is the second term? Does that explain what you (can’t) hear?

 

[René - Acculution.com]

Remember that a flat magnitude response in itself is not a guarantee for good transient behaviour if the phase response is not linear.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Remember that a flat magnitude response in itself is not a guarantee for good transient behaviour if the phase response is not linear.

Yes. One step at a time ;-)

 

[antcollinet]

The amplifier must respond with power very quickly , forcing the cone of the speaker to move and not blurring the transients. Or ?

It doesn't need to respond faster than the fastest rate of rise/fall of a 20KHz sine wave. And the flat frequency response - if it can do 20Khz at full power - shows that it can do that.

 

[Thomas_A]

To explain in technical terms, I guess the first 0.05 seconds of the beginning of a tone from different instruments, a flute, piano , a guitar chord or a cymbal crash. A sudden fortefortissimo ( fff ) chord from a grand piano can have a very dynamic attack, reaching from almost silent to 105 dB near the strings. A drumset is even more dynamic, 130 dB at the loudest transients.

How Many Decibels (dB) Loud is a Drum Set and Cymbals? | PickMyDrumSet.com

It's common knowledge that drums are loud, but just how loud are they in relation to other things? As a drummer and and audio engineer,…

pickmydrumset.com

Sound - Frequency, Amplitude, Wavelength | Britannica

Sound - Frequency, Amplitude, Wavelength: Fundamental to the analysis of any musical tone is the spectral analysis, or Fourier analysis, of a steady-state wave. According to the Fourier theorem, a steady-state wave is composed of a series of sinusoidal components whose frequencies are those of...

www.britannica.com

Tangband - transient response is related to bandwidth/frequency response. But perhaps you are meaning dynamic behaviour? Speakers have compression and linearity suffers when closing in to x-max.

 

[Cbdb2]

To explain in technical terms, I guess the first 0.05 seconds of the beginning of a tone from different instruments, a flute, piano , a guitar chord or a cymbal crash. A sudden fortefortissimo ( fff ) chord from a grand piano can have a very dynamic attack, reaching from almost silent to 105 dB near the strings. A drumset is even more dynamic, 130 dB at the loudest transients.

How Many Decibels (dB) Loud is a Drum Set and Cymbals? | PickMyDrumSet.com

It's common knowledge that drums are loud, but just how loud are they in relation to other things? As a drummer and and audio engineer,…

pickmydrumset.com

Sound - Frequency, Amplitude, Wavelength | Britannica

Sound - Frequency, Amplitude, Wavelength: Fundamental to the analysis of any musical tone is the spectral analysis, or Fourier analysis, of a steady-state wave. According to the Fourier theorem, a steady-state wave is composed of a series of sinusoidal components whose frequencies are those of...

www.britannica.com

The tone (characteristic sound) of an instrument is in its harmonics not the attack. Cut the attack off of any instrument and I can still tell you what it is. Many instruments can be played without an attack, do they become indistinguishable?

 

[dualazmak]

The tone (characteristic sound) of an instrument is in its harmonics not the attack.

Yes, fully agree with you.

This is one of the several main reasons I took intensive efforts attaching color-3D (time-Fq-gain) spectrum of Adobe Audition in my "audio sampler/reference" post series, as summarized here on my project thread; the 3D spectrum is of course not "almighty", but it gives a kind of objective representation/observation for the sampler/reference music tracks.

 

[dasdoing]

The tone (characteristic sound) of an instrument is in its harmonics not the attack. Cut the attack off of any instrument and I can still tell you what it is. Many instruments can be played without an attack, do they become indistinguishable?

I reduced about 3dB of the transient of a piano tone (like it would happen listening to the Edifier speaker I cited above):

listen: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XaFzYbmumoPCHnRIbhe5kBLe4X-FySF7/view?usp=share_link

you might think: "sounds like a piano"

but compare to the original: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1n0cW0jgX6ZOI8v68a0vrKFYRhbyj1x7b/view?usp=sharing

 

[RayDunzl]

Transients?

Here's a solo snare drum hit, in the middle of some quiet lead-up drumming (quiet roll them bang)

Here's the middle of a trombone note in the same track:

Both about 4 milliseconds of sound.

Same time scale.

Is one a transient, and not the other?

Or both?

Or neither?

 

[Cbdb2]

I reduced about 3dB of the transient of a piano tone (like it would happen listening to the Edifier speaker I cited above):

View attachment 287462

listen: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XaFzYbmumoPCHnRIbhe5kBLe4X-FySF7/view?usp=share_link

you might think: "sounds like a piano"

but compare to the original: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1n0cW0jgX6ZOI8v68a0vrKFYRhbyj1x7b/view?usp=sharing

If you played the first to anybody that knows music they will say its a piano. Do you think it sounds like a trumpet or a guitar? Now just leave the attack and see what you hear.

 

[Cbdb2]

Transients?

Here's a solo snare drum hit, in the middle of some quiet lead-up drumming (quiet roll them bang)

View attachment 287465

Here's the middle of a trombone note in the same track:

View attachment 287464

Both about 4 milliseconds of sound.

Same time scale.

Is one a transient, and not the other?

Or both?

Or neither?

There both transients (electrical term) but only one is the attack (musical term ) of the sound. If the transient repeats quickly we hear it as a freq., one of the harmonics of the tone.

 

[dasdoing]

If you played the first to anybody that knows music they will say its a piano. Do you think it sounds like a trumpet or a guitar? Now just leave the attack and see what you hear.

on its own, it resembles a softly played key,
within the context, it gives the impression of a synth due to the noticeable absence of soft playing.
However, that aspect is not particularly important, as the key point remains that the original character has been altered.