And I'd bet good money his fans come here to tell us we're narrow-minded.
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Is Digital Audio Transmission Analog? [video]
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Hans-Wolfgang
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Hello, Here is a video with a rigorous demonstration showing the absence of any influence of the cable quality for a digital signal transmission.
I'd be interested to know if Amirm has tried to compare cables for analog transmission. The role of more or less careful installation, cable crossing and cable quality (price). Thank you for your comments Hans Wolfgang Spiess from France
I'd be interested to know if Amirm has tried to compare cables for analog transmission. The role of more or less careful installation, cable crossing and cable quality (price). Thank you for your comments Hans Wolfgang Spiess from France
Our host has done a number of null tests with analog cables. This thread might be a starter.
Ethan Winer Builds a Wire Null Tester
Ethan has built a null tester for testing audio interconnects to reveal differences between them. He has a new video on it which is kind of long on intro but then gets to the meat of the argument toward the last third:
www.audiosciencereview.com
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Hans Wolfgans Spiess of Max Planck Institute by any chance?
There are so many fraudulent reviewers on YouTube, they are just like the rags such as WhatHiFi, Stereophile and all the others who are paid by these manufacturers to survive!
Doubt it!
He is 13 years too young.
Hans-Wolfgang
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Hello,
I'm just a simple doctor in Normandy interested in listening to music with correct equipment and without trickery !
Sincerely
HWS
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Very good video and very good work. For others who have not watched it, he shows that a cheap USB cable going through a Toslink loopback on RME creates bit-exact output. He shows the same with S/PDIF and I^C. He also goes thorough explaining that if there were bit errors, they would be random and not create the differences audiophiles talk about.
On your question, yes, I have reviewed a number of analog cables and none show any improvements and a few actually are more susceptible to noise than cheap cables. Key thing to remember is that as the simplest part of your electronics, your cable has far higher bandwidth, far lower noise and much less distortion than your complex audio gear. For this reason, it cannot possibly make a real difference. Measurements and null tests with music show the same. In this review, I show how the cheapest, oldest, crappiest RCA cable is still transparent to the source: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ton-rca-cable-review-ultra-cheap-cable.33473/
Above shows that the cable has the same performance as having no cable!
Here is a review of Nordost speaker cable compared to generic: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ost-superflatline-speaker-cable-review.45615/
It actually picks up more noise than the generic cable. But otherwise has flat bandwidth to 200 kHz and beyond, just like the cheap cable:
There are many more tests like this.
That said, if work hard, you can find cables that make a difference like too thin of a speaker cable, or one with poor quality. Spend a few dollars more and you are assured transparency.
Hans-Wolfgang
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Many thanks for taking the time to reply! Hans Wolfgang
That’s why Nordost charges so much money for their cables do you get the extra noiseVery good video and very good work. For others who have not watched it, he shows that a cheap USB cable going through a Toslink loopback on RME creates bit-exact output. He shows the same with S/PDIF and I^C. He also goes thorough explaining that if there were bit errors, they would be random and not create the differences audiophiles talk about.
On your question, yes, I have reviewed a number of analog cables and none show any improvements and a few actually are more susceptible to noise than cheap cables. Key thing to remember is that as the simplest part of your electronics, your cable has far higher bandwidth, far lower noise and much less distortion than your complex audio gear. For this reason, it cannot possibly make a real difference. Measurements and null tests with music show the same. In this review, I show how the cheapest, oldest, crappiest RCA cable is still transparent to the source: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ton-rca-cable-review-ultra-cheap-cable.33473/
Above shows that the cable has the same performance as having no cable!
Here is a review of Nordost speaker cable compared to generic: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ost-superflatline-speaker-cable-review.45615/
It actually picks up more noise than the generic cable. But otherwise has flat bandwidth to 200 kHz and beyond, just like the cheap cable:
There are many more tests like this.
That said, if work hard, you can find cables that make a difference like too thin of a speaker cable, or one with poor quality. Spend a few dollars more and you are assured transparency.
As a computer science engineer I totally agree with the fact that digital audio is only 0 and 1 and the disruption of digital square waves do not affect the analogue audio section of the streamer/dac, but I cannot understand how there are stil differences between different streamers (when using them to stream digital only). I tried using my receiver's internal streamer and then used an external streamer connected to my receiver through hdmi and the external streamer sounds different. the soundstage is around 5-10% wider and the separation of tones is slightly better. The differences are pretty small, but never the less, there is a difference
What are the properties which are affecting the sound?
What are the properties which are affecting the sound?
Some possibilities:
- Level matching if there is any digital volume control or other digital manipulation in any of the devices.
- Different DSP being applied between your receivers internal streamer versus the HDMI input.
- Different masters if you are streaming from different files/servers/services.
- Alternatively - cognitive bias - if you are not testing blind and controlled.
I teste
volume was exactly the same (though measured in decibels by an app on my phone)
I streamed exactly the same file
My daughter changed the inputs while I'm blind folded, and still I could hear the differences.
I test the soundstage's width by pointing at the location where I hear a specific tone and when I open my eyes, I write down exactly where I heard it.
I used "you and your friend" by Dire Straits which is a wonderful track on its own and has two guitars playing way outside the speakers in both sides.
I did the test using Pure Direct mode in the denon receiver, so no dsp involved.
volume was exactly the same (though measured in decibels by an app on my phone)
I streamed exactly the same file
My daughter changed the inputs while I'm blind folded, and still I could hear the differences.
I test the soundstage's width by pointing at the location where I hear a specific tone and when I open my eyes, I write down exactly where I heard it.
I used "you and your friend" by Dire Straits which is a wonderful track on its own and has two guitars playing way outside the speakers in both sides.
Not sure what manipulation will be done by the external streamer to format the stream for HDMI.
Measuing in the audio domain is not accurate enough if adjustment is needed. Needs to be measured with a test tone using a volt meter at the speaker terminals. Even a tiny difference that you won't hear as a volume change can alter the perceived quality.
A step in the right direction - now you need to confirm you can tell which is which at least 9 out of 10 times - no retrys - and with absolutely no tells (such as a different click sound for the select buttons etc - and if you are opening your eyes - no visual cues either. Also no interaction with your daughter so she can't give any subconscious cues.
Since the sounds come out of the the same receiver used as a preamp, the volumes match exactly, no adjustment was needed. I did confirm the differences 10 out of 10, the difference in soundstage width is audible and easily detected. The streamer is a DMP A6 master Edition.
And on a similar subject, after reading a lot of measurements in this site lately (and learning a lot about manufacturer's BS thanks to the great information provided in these forums) I noticed that a lot of R2R dacs have average measurements but still when comparing my Gustard R26 dac to the Eversolo's own dac (which measures a lot better). the Gustard just sounds better (and will do so in every blind test I tried going in to the same preamp and power-amp, volume matched of course), the bass is more punchier and accurate and voices are more dense and pulpable by pretty much, Soundstage is a bit more 3d consisting of a bit more depth (more separation in the stage, more air) . Is this the harmonic distortions who give us a sense of depth and more 3d perception?
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Well then the only two things I can think of you could now do to work out what is going on would be:
- To measure the actual sound coming out of the receiver using a high performance ADC.
- Obtain circuit diagrams of the receiver and sources to find out how the audio processing might be different between the two inputs.
Particularly the first of these is a (to say the least) non-trivial exercise, so I wouldn't recommend it unless you really want to get into high quality measurements.
However - any difference you are hearing (if it is a genuine difference in the sound reaching your ears, and not being created in the wetware between them) will have an explainable cause somewhere in the audio processing chain - and will be measurable.
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It is quite possible the receiver processes the HDMI input differently than an external streamer input, anything from internal resampling to different filters and analog stages before ultimately combining the signals before the power amp. Most of the AVR/AVPs I have had process different digital sources somewhat differently. I've seen sample rates, filters, level trims, and other things vary among inputs, especially HDMI vs. everything else since HDMI usually goes through a dedicated chip to extract the audio stream. I suspect the difference is real but figuring out exactly why may require a deep dive into the processing circuits of your AVR. Note this has nothing to do with room correction processing, but rather the capture of the data stream from the two sources, digital to analog conversion, and subsequent analog processing. You'd have to trace the signal path from each source to determine the differences and presumably why the audible difference.
Digital signals that have jerky sharp rise and fall times are just analog signal that are interpreted, rather than taken literally.
The *transmission* (physical layer) may be anything you want -the whole point it so make it irrelevant. The actual information/data ("application layer") is digital, and hence unaltered and safe if encoded with such intent (which music is... error correction, often TCP retransmissions if necessary etc etc).
Seems Darko needs a basic class in OSI Layers.
Hence the only thing one needs to worry about is the "A" in the DAC, which converts a bit-perfect {digital) signal into the analog signal you hear.
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