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Video attempting to show benefit of audio network switches

amirm

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I was asked in private to comment about what is shown here with respect to network switches making a difference in a DAC:


Summarizing if you don't want to watch it, he is probing the clock input to a DAC in a streamer. He then puts a power supply next to the Ethernet cable and also uses a current transformer around the Ethernet cable to show that there is a 20% or so increase in clock jitter of the DAC. This is not surprising as there can always be some leakage if you push things hard. I have actually shown the same with respect to Ethernet cables (see: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ments-of-emo-en-60kds-ethernet-isolator.1869/)

index.php


As we see there, the mains hum that I induced actually appears in the output of the DAC if one doesn't use the isolated cable i was testing.

The key though is its level: we are talking near -120 dB! Such is also the case in the above video. He measures something called "Total Jitter." I don't know what that means but it goes from 130 to 150 picoseconds or something like it. He has another metric he says is "average jitter" and that is in the order of 10 picoseconds. Again, these are variations in the purity of the clock input to the DAC, not the impact it has on its output. But assuming it is, 512 picoseconds of jitter represents the low order bit of a 16 bit audio sample (peak to peak). Given that, what they are measuring is well below the noise level of 16 bit audio -- similar to what I measured above.

In other words, in really contrived examples we can show a measurable difference but it is impossible to make a case of audibility.

When I have measured such devices using the analog output of a streamer, I have not found any difference anyway: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/.../uptone-audio-etherregen-switch-review.10232/

Without:
index.php


With fancy switch:
index.php


And this is in a very noisy scenario of my workstation feeing from the same source, etc.

I have also done a video on this:
 

TonyJZX

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the biggest counter to this is the fact you can stream over wifi and a slew of other technologies inc. ethernet over power

if this truly was an issue then your excel sheets would also come out the other end completely messed up

to ethernet and tcp/ip, data is data no matter if its flac or xls or video... it doesnt care and hence when your dac gets the data its no different from a laptop getting and xls sheet
 

gumblag

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Thank you Amir. I watched the video and since I have no electro-technical background I suspected that measurements were out of the scope of audibility, though. But I was not sure and than again I lack the techinical knowledge to comprehend and/or to explain things in the electronic domain. So your comment on this videocllip is very welcome.
 

tmtomh

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the biggest counter to this is the fact you can stream over wifi and a slew of other technologies inc. ethernet over power

if this truly was an issue then your excel sheets would also come out the other end completely messed up

to ethernet and tcp/ip, data is data no matter if its flac or xls or video... it doesnt care and hence when your dac gets the data its no different from a laptop getting and xls sheet

Yes! I am so sick of seeing some folks treat audio data like it's qualitatively different than other digital data. If some of what folks claim matters in digital audio really mattered, then their cell phones wouldn't function and they wouldn't be able to get their videos uploaded to YouTube.
 
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amirm

amirm

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Do none of these people wonder why they can stream much more video data over the same network equipment without any visual issues on their TV?
To be fair to their testing, DACs work differently in that they are mixed signal devices: both digital and analog. Displays are partially that way in that the brightness of the pixel is analog but its position is digital. Not so with DACs where the clock can jitter the timing of the sample back and forth. So in theory, it has always been possible to show some effect with respect to digital audio signals in DACs.
 

fpitas

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Do none of these people wonder why they can stream much more video data over the same network equipment without any visual issues on their TV?
Stop being sensible. We're talking audio here; all things are possible.
 

tmtomh

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Stop being sensible. We're talking audio here; all things are possible.

And if you don't agree that all things are possible, you are close-minded and not truly scientific. :)
 

fpitas

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And if you don't agree that all things are possible, you are close-minded and not truly scientific. :)
Not to mention, you're just cheap and your system isn't resolving enough :facepalm:
 

Homard

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I was asked in private to comment about what is shown here with respect to network switches making a difference in a DAC:


Summarizing if you don't want to watch it, he is probing the clock input to a DAC in a streamer. He then puts a power supply next to the Ethernet cable and also uses a current transformer around the Ethernet cable to show that there is a 20% or so increase in clock jitter of the DAC. This is not surprising as there can always be some leakage if you push things hard. I have actually shown the same with respect to Ethernet cables (see: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ments-of-emo-en-60kds-ethernet-isolator.1869/)

index.php


As we see there, the mains hum that I induced actually appears in the output of the DAC if one doesn't use the isolated cable i was testing.

The key though is its level: we are talking near -120 dB! Such is also the case in the above video. He measures something called "Total Jitter." I don't know what that means but it goes from 130 to 150 picoseconds or something like it. He has another metric he says is "average jitter" and that is in the order of 10 picoseconds. Again, these are variations in the purity of the clock input to the DAC, not the impact it has on its output. But assuming it is, 512 picoseconds of jitter represents the low order bit of a 16 bit audio sample (peak to peak). Given that, what they are measuring is well below the noise level of 16 bit audio -- similar to what I measured above.

In other words, in really contrived examples we can show a measurable difference but it is impossible to make a case of audibility.

When I have measured such devices using the analog output of a streamer, I have not found any difference anyway: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/.../uptone-audio-etherregen-switch-review.10232/

Without:
index.php


With fancy switch:
index.php


And this is in a very noisy scenario of my workstation feeing from the same source, etc.

I have also done a video on this:
Could you please respond at some point to the presentation at
 

radix

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the biggest counter to this is the fact you can stream over wifi and a slew of other technologies inc. ethernet over power

if this truly was an issue then your excel sheets would also come out the other end completely messed up

to ethernet and tcp/ip, data is data no matter if its flac or xls or video... it doesnt care and hence when your dac gets the data its no different from a laptop getting and xls sheet

I think his point is not that the data is being corrupted by the common mode noise, but that the noise leaks into the the other circuits and causes the DAC clock to be off.

But as Amir said, it still needs to be shown that the small amount of clock error has any real impact on the analog output.
 

Cbdb2

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Shielded CAT cables are a little more than regular ones, if you have a noise environment, most homes aren't.
 

antcollinet

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Is it not also likely that putting a bloody great probe directly onto the clock signal provides an additional coupling mechanism for noise... directly to the clock? Or the capacitance of the probe itself causing additional jitter.

So surely if the result of the jitter is at about -120dB and therefore measurable - he should measure this effect on the output of the dac with the dac closed (and without a probe connected to the clock), as it would be in a real system.


EDIT : And does he also go on to demonstrate that replacing the switch with an audiophile version eliminates the jitter under the same conditions?
 
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TonyJZX

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uncle paul is somehow not ready for this level of bandwagoning
 

Cbdb2

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Why do people keep supporting BS audio. Every click encourages the scam artist. Do us all a favor and please boycott his videos.
 

pablolie

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... Displays are partially that way in that the brightness of the pixel is analog ...

I don't think it is any different - the video/audio signal is digitally encoded in something like MPEG4 H.265. I do agree the conversion from D to A is where the trick lies in both audio and video domains. And similar to audio, there are discussions about "blacker blacks" and so on in video when it comes to the final product you see. Probably more challenging to quantitatively measure video due to far more parameters and far more dependency on external stuff with measurement lenses or fast movement measurements. And because we are very visual by nature and we trust our vision (despite the fact it doesn't rank highly in the animal kingdom). There are endless debates (many pointless) in color accuracy of computer monitors for graphic designers, for example, reflecting the exact same duality of digital resolution vs its analog representation. We know the former is mathematicaly accurate, but that implementation in the analog domain can screw up the representation of that data accuracy.
 
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gumblag

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Could you please respond at some point to the presentation at
Just "Another one bites the dust" case. I watch his videos but never take them very seriously; it's a kind of entertainment to see someone babling about high-end in an atempt to display his expertise, but needing the confirmation so badly by the moderated comments which leaves a praise for everybody to read.
 

Svet Angelov

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I'd go so far as to say that Hans is a lost cause, he drank so much of the Kool-aid that his fans stirred up that he will counter all objective proof with technical jibber-jabber that any electrical or network engineer worth their salt would laugh at. Luckily (for him), the majority of people eat it up.
 
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