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Introducing Hang Loose Convolver from Accurate Sound

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mitchco

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Hi Keith, Yes, I have a virtual ASIO driver on the way, plus an AES67 driver. But for Windows audio I was looking into developing my own WDM driver to replace VB-Virtual Audio Cable, but the complexity and Microsoft's ridiculous certification expense had me discouraged... That is until I found LoopBeAudio virtual WDM driver. Unlike VB Virtual Audio Cable, LoopBeAudio is a proper "kernel mode" driver with no internal I/O buffers or resampler settings to fuss with. It just works. The status app in the system tray is a nice touch to ensure matching samples rates/bit depth:

1696926783652.png


Another cool aspect is that it supports 24 channels of I/O on Windows:

1696927012673.png


Breaks the 8 channel limit... I liken its quality to BlackHole on the Mac, it has been rock solid performance.

It is a commercial product, and while there is a free trial (60 minute reboots), it costs USD $20. So rather than me reinventing the wheel, and paying a small certification fortune to MSFT, I highly recommend LoopBeAudio for Windows.
 

SDX-LV

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Hang Loose Convolver (“HLC”) is now available on Raspberry Pi4.

Requirements:
Raspberry Pi4 4GB (2GB is likely to work).
64 Bit OS Debian version 11 (bullseye).

Performance:
Process 32 channels of convolution using 65,536 tap length FIR filters at 48 kHz sample rate.

Example playing a 7.1.4 Dolby Atmos (already decoded) music file using a VST3 plugin AudioFilePlayer. HLC is configured for 12 channels with 2 channel I/O being summed:
Unexpectedly impressive! Can you suggest some scenarios how to use this in multichannel? I have trouble finding digital audio IO that is compatible with Raspberry Pi, so while the idea to build standalone programmable DSP with Raspberry Pi is amazing, I would like it to support something like 12+ ch input and 16+ ch output to be really versatile like Mac/PC processing.
 

Keith_W

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Can you suggest some scenarios how to use this in multichannel?

For home audio:

- integrating multiple subwoofers with your main speakers
- converting your speakers to active speakers with a digital crossover, you will need one channel per driver (e.g. I have a pair of 3 way speakers with 2 subwoofers, so I need 8 channels)
- controlling a multi-speaker surround system

In all cases you will need another program (e.g. Acourate, Audiolense) to generate the filters that you load into HLC. Mitch has written some articles which are linked on his website. You can also hire Mitch to make those filters for you.
 

SDX-LV

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@SDX-LV the usual suspects for 16 channels of digital I/O are pro interfaces like Merging Hapi, RME, and Motu among others. LinuxMusicians is a good general forum and Merging Hapi, RME, and Motu have their own Linux support. I am working on testing this out.
OK, Motu AO24 for output combined with some Dante or other digital input would be ideal to use with something like https://www.stereophile.com/content/arvus-h2-4d-multichannel-dolby-atmos-digital-processor. The goal is to have all the flexibility of PC based DSP without actually dealing with a device that constantly needs updates, takes long time to boot up and so on...

I looks like using Motu or other interfaces on Linux have quite a lot of driver issues and limitations, so it is not as simple as just plug and play. Still I think Raspberry PI version sounds amazing, just trying to find a valid approach to run all of this in practice without lossy analog inputs :)
 

Lipaz

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Reverb plugin (HLConvolverHost) demo is not allowed. Not even a tiny bit. :facepalm:
 

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mk1classic

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Lipaz

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Yes, and I installed the trial version aka demo. And as I wrote, the trial/demo does not allow the reverb plugin to try. Screenshot was attached. Hence I do not know why you’d like me to click on that link. :)
 
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mitchco

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1699651468480.png

As it says on the web site, right below the download links, a license key is required. As @mk1classic says, click on the link to receive a trial activation key.
 

Lipaz

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Yep, you're right. I just should have to read not with my ears, but my eyes. Thank you very much! I "applied" for a temp license today. Would like to give it a try, before I jump on the Neumann MA1 wagon.
 
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mitchco

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I have trouble finding digital audio IO that is compatible with Raspberry Pi, so while the idea to build standalone programmable DSP with Raspberry Pi is amazing, I would like it to support something like 12+ ch input and 16+ ch output to be really versatile like Mac/PC processing.

I hear you and been meaning to get back to you. I am working with a company that develops custom digital audio I/O boards compatible with Raspberry Pi. Can't go into too much detail yet but likely be a 1U chassis and the number of digital I/O channels will be configurable. Trying for the "Swiss Army" knife of DSP I/O supporting HDMI, TOSLINK, AES, DANTE, USB, and …

If you, or others, have specific requirements or features, please let me know or drop me an email.

In the meantime, I can share some test results with a client that needed DRC/convolution for a 7.1.4 Dolby Atmos playback studio for both music and movies. Since the studio was already outfitted with Lynx Studio gear, it was simple to build a standalone DSP Processor using Lynx's AES16e 16 channel digital I/O card on Windows. But first, had to prove one can use long tap length (65,536 taps) convolution FIR filters for movies with less than 22ms of round trip latency. Long tap FIR filters (e.g. 65,536 taps) provide excellent low frequency control below 100 Hz, right where you need the power for effective digital room correction.

Note: for music/movie production, studios use DAW’s that has latency compensation built in which takes care of any latency reported by the VST3/AU plugins and adjusts the video so that both the audio and video are in sync. Same approach for tracking/overdubbing. Some consumer applications like JRiver also can do this. But for "standalone" music and movie sound reproduction rooms that are not outfitted with DAW's, there is currently no way to report audio latency back to the media player application that’s running in a separate process. This is an issue for lipsync. However, one can mitigate this by using a 0ms latency convolver and pro audio gear with direct audio connections via ASIO protocol.

My test setup is computer 1 with a Lynx Hilo attached using a media player application to play music and movies. The Hilo's AES output is AES input to the AES16e card in a 2nd computer. HLConvolver “Host” application hosts the HLC VST3 convolution plugin on the 2nd computer. HLC is processing a 65,536-tap minimum phase FIR filter, with AES16e output back to the Hilo AES digital input. Hilo DAC output is connected to amps/speakers and headphones. The AES16e was slave to the Hilo; tested using sync from the AES digital input signal or Hilo's external clock output. Results were identical with either setting.

Step 1 was use REW on computer 1 to produce a loopback sweep through the entire digital I/O chain, including convolution with a Dirac pulse 65,536 tap minimum phase FIR filter. As expected, perfectly flat frequency and phase response. Looking at REW's distortion tab was about -150 dBFS across the frequency spectrum. Computer 1 is a 12-year-old i5 CPU with Windows 10 loaded to the hilt with apps and services. Still, -150 dBFS is well below our hearing threshold. Fyi, MSFT has Windows IoT for embedded applications with short boot times/minimal processes. I did not get a chance to test using Windows IoT.

Next up was to play movies while reducing both interfaces ASIO audio buffer sizes until dropouts/static was heard and then backed off until the audio was solid with no dropouts. This is done before measuring the round-trip latency so as not to "game" the numbers. It is easy to reduce the buffer sizes to next to nothing when sending a test pulse to get the lowest latency numbers, but it won’t play continuous audio without massive dropouts/static.

I use Round Trip Latency (RTL) Utility to measure the end-to-end latency. The utility is run on computer 1 and reported the following latencies with convolution engaged at different sample rates on the 2nd computer. This test at 96 kHz sample rate with 65,536 tap minphase FIR filter:

RTL 96kHz 65536 tap FIR filter.png


Other tested sample rate latencies:
48 kHz: 14.875ms.
192 kHz: 8.625ms.
Bypass: 48 kHz: 14.875ms.
48 kHz 262,144 taps minphase FIR filter: 14.896ms.

As an amateur drummer, and ex pro recording/mixing engineer, I am sensitive to drum sticks not in sync with video. Typically, during tracking/overdubbing one wants about 5ms of delay between live playing and track playback. But for movie watching, I find even the <15ms delay at 48 kHz is almost imperceptible and soon forgotten about. At 96 kHz with <9ms round trip latency with 65,536 tap minphase FIR filters, it was imperceptible to me even watching Keith Moon’s manic drumming. So all measured times below the film threshold of 22ms (and up to 45ms for video).

If you have a Windows PC laying around, an AES16e card is about $500 used and with HLC ($129) one can have 16 channels of digital I/O (albeit AES) of standalone convolution to run higher tap filters for better low frequency control for around $750. Works for music and video. It's just one approach of many.

Back to the Raspberry Pi based DSP product, I would be interested in hearing people’s requirements and/or features. Thanks.
 

Keith_W

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Back to the Raspberry Pi based DSP product, I would be interested in hearing people’s requirements and/or features. Thanks.

That sounds like an intriguing product you are developing there, Mitch. Here are some questions and a little wish list:

1. Will it have built-in DAC's?
2. Will there be individual analog volume trim? As you know, DSP room/speaker correction sacrifices volume for linearity. This is especially a problem if you are using dissimilar amps and drivers. In my own system, the power amp to my woofers is at 0dB while I have to cut the power to my midrange horns by -17.5dB. Also, my woofer has more correction done to it than my horns, which drops the volume even more. My system is thus volume limited by the woofer. IMO all multi-channel DAC's and DSP needs individual volume trim with a very high output voltage, maybe > 6V. If required you could implement DIP switches to enable high output mode.
3. If you haven't thought of it already, inclusion of an expansion slot for future upgrades would be a good idea. In the future, you could add microphone I/O, more DAC channels, etc.
4. Is use of HLC mandatory or would it work with any convolver you bring along? I am guessing if you are using a RPi it will already have HLC built-in?
5. What is the Windows interface? Will it have system-wide sound (allowing you to play sounds from Chrome, Youtube app, etc) or is it ASIO only?
6. Does it process audio at 64 bits with 131k taps?
 
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mitchco

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Thanks Keith for your input, much appreciated. Those are good suggestions and I totally hear you on the analog trim! I have chatted with my DSP Partners abut including their DRC/DSP software for a fully integrated solution, including mic pre/ADC and DAC along with convolution. Certainly possible as all the modules are available...

The product I am describing is a bit simpler as a standalone DSP Processor "platform" with multichannel digital I/O but supporting various protocols in which the input could be AES but the output could be USB or Ravenna for example. I.e. includes protocol conversion. Also, Hang Loose "Host" application can host plugins like Room Shaper. uBACCH, AURO-3D or other DRC plugins like Dirac's DLP, or any of the thousands of DSP plugins readily available for any type of DSP processing. Since it is all modular, maybe a configurator is warranted so it can be configured for any usage scenario...

Since HDMI is an input, also looking at the possibility of adding an Atmos decoder. The solution is there, licensing a bit expensive, but...
 

Keith_W

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Hi Mitch, if you include their DRC/DSP software as an integrated solution, you are effectively creating a MiniDSP competitor. What I would hope to see would be a "software agnostic" processor, where you can generate FIR filters on any software you like, load it into the processor as generic .WAV and .CFG files, and that is that. One reason I am not so enthusiastic about MiniDSP/DEQX is because the software is proprietary, the FIR output format is proprietary, and I would rather use my preferred software than what they lock you in to.

Not to mention - if you start selling these things with the software built in, you might have to support both hardware and software, and as I understand it you are a one man company. Look at the size of the MiniDSP/DEQX support forum. Look at all the work Uli and Bernt put in to support their software. Nobody wants you to burn yourself out to an early grave.

It sounds as if you have not decided whether or not to include the ADC/DAC module so my remarks about volume trim might be moot.

What really excites me about your product is the possibility that this might become the "digital preamp" that I have wanted for a long time. At the moment, I am using a Windows PC with JRiver and Acourate Convolver. Although it is theoretically possible to input a HDMI signal or any digital signal through my PC for convolution, the reality of doing so is a massive pain. It involves two additional pieces of hardware: a HDMI converter, and my RME soundcard to get the signal into the PC via ASIO. From there, I have to configure JRiver to "Open ASIO Live Session" and set it to listen for digital input from the correct port, and then change the FIR filter for low latency. It is unreasonable to expect my wife to perform such a complex feat when she wants to watch a movie. A preamp that automagically does all these things with a turn of a knob would be a massive upgrade in useability.
 

SDX-LV

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I hear you and been meaning to get back to you. I am working with a company that develops custom digital audio I/O boards compatible with Raspberry Pi. Can't go into too much detail yet but likely be a 1U chassis and the number of digital I/O channels will be configurable. Trying for the "Swiss Army" knife of DSP I/O supporting HDMI, TOSLINK, AES, DANTE, USB, and …

If you, or others, have specific requirements or features, please let me know or drop me an email.

...

If you have a Windows PC laying around, an AES16e card is about $500 used and with HLC ($129) one can have 16 channels of digital I/O (albeit AES) of standalone convolution to run higher tap filters for better low frequency control for around $750. Works for music and video. It's just one approach of many.

Back to the Raspberry Pi based DSP product, I would be interested in hearing people’s requirements and/or features. Thanks.

Hi, Interesting questions.

Regarding some 16+ in/out interfaces I would probably go for Motu 8D or even fancier Motu 112D AVB - very flexible devices which work with almost everything as external devices.

If somehow you are actually influencing a development of a new digital interface (I can't believe this) then consider that:
  • important to have 16+ channels to allow for 7.1.4 with 4 subs or even more channels to add bass shakers, run active crossovers, etc. (for example miniDSP is stuck in the 8ch world on most products, otherwise MCH Streamer is a nice HW option)
  • Today AES67 / Dante is a probably the best digital input option because it is convenient and can work with for example https://shop.arvus.com/view-product/h1-d or JBL Synthesis processors
  • For outputs I find to be the most versatile either AES/EBU/SPDIF or ADAT - ADAT is great to connect various 8+ ch DACs while AES/EBU/SPDIF is ideal if you use DSP-amplified studio monitors.
  • If you really can get HDMI input with at least 7.1 PCM support that would be something almost unheard of. Otherwise Arvus H1-D is probably the cheapest and the most compact HDMI processor.
  • adding DACs is most likely a waste of resources, because it is not cheap, yet unless Amir tests your DACs, it will mostly likely not-be trusted and therefore added user value is 10$.
  • Finally some Windows and Mac compatibility will go a long way - that also can be implemented via not USB, but via AES67/Dante network connection and virtual soundcard driver.
 

ShadowFiend

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@mitchco: I'm interested in HLC. My DSP chain right now is Roon (music selection, streaming, EQ) -> HQPlayer (convolver for DSP crossover + DSD Upsampling) -> HQPlayer NAA -> DAC. Is there any way to slot HLC between Roon and HQPlayer?
 
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mitchco

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Hi @ShadowFiend no easy way I am afraid as neither Roon or HQPlayer supports the VST or AU plugin model. So HLC would need to be setup as a standalone app using HLHost. It would require a virtual audio driver to take the output of Roon and loop it back into the input of HLHost, through HLConvolver (and any other plugin you are using), and then the output of HLHost through yet another virtual driver into HQPlayer. Possible, but not ideal.
 

AudioJester

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@Mitcho looking to add VST functionality to my windows/Roon setup. Currently using your filters in a 3 way active setup.
Could I do this with loopbeaudio-HLHost-HLconvolver? Presume go 2 channel L/R from Roon output and tgen 6 channel outpt from convolver to okto dac?
 
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