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If Bits are Bits
- Thread starter Takaya
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I'm calling BS. The author needs to learn about digital modulation. There are many ways to encode digital not a "almost universal " amplitude shift keying. Actually ASK is one of the least used. If digital transmission is such a problem why does my bank account never automatically change?
"The most fundamental digital modulation techniques are based on keying:
"The most fundamental digital modulation techniques are based on keying:
- PSK (phase-shift keying): a finite number of phases are used.
- FSK (frequency-shift keying): a finite number of frequencies are used.
- ASK (amplitude-shift keying): a finite number of amplitudes are used.
- QAM (quadrature amplitude modulation): a finite number of at least two phases and at least two amplitudes are used."
KSTR
Major Contributor
I think all of the confusion comes from mixing up the abstract concept of a digital transmission channel where "bits are bits" as long as there are no symbol errors (after error correction via redundancy, if applicable) and the potential side-effects of the actual transport mechanism on the final analog output of the DAC converting bit-perfect input streams which is purely an implementation issue. Jitter would be one well-known ill-effect but there are several others like RF demodulation, GND or reference voltage disturbance etc.
This means, quoting Mr. Hansen "all of the problems of digital are analog [signal integrity] problems", is spot on.
This means, quoting Mr. Hansen "all of the problems of digital are analog [signal integrity] problems", is spot on.
mhardy6647
Grand Contributor
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Heh using a Tandberg 10X (or 10XD, as the case may be) to load computer s/w. That's hardcore. 
Texas Instruments first home computer (1979) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TI-99/4A delivered some of there games on audio cassettes, and you could back stuff up on them. My friend used a cheap dictation cassette deck and never had a problem. And all the analog problems from a cheap cassette tape recorder meant nothing to the bits. They all returned intact.
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Hello,
I experienced with my Cary Audio CD-306 Pro that at 44.1 KHz, 16 bit, CDs sound much denser and thicker than files (wave 44.1KHz, 16bits).
Same experience with a simple DVD player, same result! The sound of CDs is denser.
I pointed this out to my specialist hi-fi dealer,
he told me that he had already noticed this phenomenon and had no explanation.
Whoever has a doubt must experience it.
Reguards
I experienced with my Cary Audio CD-306 Pro that at 44.1 KHz, 16 bit, CDs sound much denser and thicker than files (wave 44.1KHz, 16bits).
Same experience with a simple DVD player, same result! The sound of CDs is denser.
I pointed this out to my specialist hi-fi dealer,
he told me that he had already noticed this phenomenon and had no explanation.
Whoever has a doubt must experience it.
Reguards
You can record the output to analyse. It’s a respectably good DAC, but I can imagine different upsampling being used or HDCD decoding or differences in the digital filter playing a role too. Could even be as simple as different volume levels.
https://www.stereophile.com/content...ofessional-version-sacdcd-player-measurements
That was my first thought too.
Seems odd that a file would play at a different level compared with a CD on the same device - but Ive heard of it happening before. I guess if it has separate chipsets that handle CD audio compared with file audio that could happen.
As physical media, CDs are certainly denser than wav files which are encoded as vibrations in the luminiferous aether and therefore weigh very little
Galliardist
Major Contributor
Whoever has a doubt probably won't experience it. I certainly don't. I just checked, CDs against EAC rips of the same CDs, so that I could definitely say that. (USB drive, before you ask).
Maybe my overpriced player isn't resolving enough, or something. And I bet your seller of CD players checked that you thought "denser" equals "better" before agreeing?
Welcome to ASR, the land where we have a doubt
... and there is no intrinsic reason for two identical bitstreams to sound different.Our new friend has experienced this on two players of different standards in two systems, though. I guess the same differences could be in play, and would have to point to the music in use, or the listener, as the most likely causes of this.
@C3dr!c, if you haven't read much on this forum, we tend to "blame" listeners a lot here, including ourselves, and you will get the "do a blind test" response soon enough. It's OK. Your brain is supposed to interpret what the ears hear, but also other senses and memory, to tell you what you are "actually" hearing, This works great in the real world and gives you a coherent view of the world to act on. Not so good for evaluating hifi though.
On the other hand, it's always nice to know when there is a chance of a real world difference. So, can we have more details? What about your system with the DVD player? And where do the files come from?
Just what does denser and thicker sound even mean, tho? I think your hifi dealer likely just has no clue, as most of them don't, and just wanted to not disagree with you.
MAB
Major Contributor
\
Welcome to ASR.
A veil or two may be lifted.
Sorry you spent so much money on a CD player already. But it wont play the same digital file any differently than the same data rendered via a different path.
The source (i.e. the recording) matters.
Your speakers matter.
Your room matters.
The computational device and the cable or I/O that the device gets the data from doesn't matter one iota. And thanks to that since many more mission-critical tasks require data to be rendered properly irrespective of the machine.
This is how I used to sell cables and tiptoes and other things that made no difference in the sound.
Welcome to ASR.
A veil or two may be lifted.
Sorry you spent so much money on a CD player already. But it wont play the same digital file any differently than the same data rendered via a different path.
The source (i.e. the recording) matters.
Your speakers matter.
Your room matters.
The computational device and the cable or I/O that the device gets the data from doesn't matter one iota. And thanks to that since many more mission-critical tasks require data to be rendered properly irrespective of the machine.
I've blind tested it. I could not tell which was the CD and which was the streamer playing the copied CD as a FLAC file.
Whoever has a doubt should try it blind.
Where did the wave files come from? Wave files have more error correction than CDs and are a better format and the standard file format for studios. I've never heard a difference from ripped CDs to wave.
No, they don't. WAV files have no error correction at all.
You are correct, my bad.
I dont hear it
The wav files enjoy the error correction of the medium they are stored on or streaming protocol they are streamed with. But if you really want to be right: no error correction in the files themself
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