If Bits are Bits

[MAB]

Yes. When I was on the floor the first rule was validate the customer’s observations, no matter how stupid. Customers say all kinds of weird stuff. Like improv comedy, you go with it, trying to connect it to something you sell.

We’ll stated!

 

[krabapple]

Hello,

I experienced with my Cary Audio CD-306 Pro that at 44.1 KHz, 16 bit, CDs sound much denser and thicker than files (wave 44.1KHz, 16bits).
Same experience with a simple DVD player, same result! The sound of CDs is denser.

I pointed this out to my specialist hi-fi dealer,
he told me that he had already noticed this phenomenon and had no explanation.

Whoever has a doubt must experience it.

Reguards

Alas C3dr!c your anecdote here doesn't even begin to be convincing proof that there was inherent audible difference.

Your claim that one 'must experience ' it to be convinced, is based on faulty premise.

Let's assume your files are actually ripped from that same CD (i.e., they aren't a different mastering)

What one must do, is make sure the output level of your Cary is matched to that of your file player.

What one must also do, is make sure insidious 'sighted bias' is controlled for.

But one could skip all that and just show us carefully measured output FR of the Cary. That could reveal right away whether it is acting as an equalizer in addition to being a DAC+transport.

 

[krabapple]

That was my first thought too.

Seems odd that a file would play at a different level compared with a CD on the same device - but Ive heard of it happening before. I guess if it has separate chipsets that handle CD audio compared with file audio that could happen.

He didn't explicitly say the files were played by the Cary and his DVDP, though it could be read that way. He just said that file play sounded thinner than playing a CD with a CD player or DVD player.

I would not be terribly surprised if the analog stage of his CDP or his DVDP had a different output voltage than another chain he's using to play files.

Then again, we don't even know if the files he's talking about are actually ripped from the CD in question, or derive from somewhere else.

 

[C3dr!c]

Hello everyone,

I acquired a brand new Cary Audio DMC-600SE.
I confirm the phenomenon I mentioned earlier.
A notable difference between a 44.1KHz wav file and a CD.
I would define this by a much greater sound density on CD.
The CD is clearly superior to the audio file. To make an analogy, the CD would be a bowling ball and the file a soccer ball.
The DAC output of the DMC-600 is exactly the same regardless of the source.
To reduce this difference a little I have to upsample the file with the Cary to 176.4 KHz. but CD quality is still not achieved.
When I have the time and patience I will record a video.

 

[krabapple]

Even aside from the sighted listening and level matching issues that render your claim extremely dubious:

Was the wav file ripped from the CD?

And how did you verify that the 'DAC output is exactly the same"? If that's true the audio is exactly the same.

 

[C3dr!c]

He didn't explicitly say the files were played by the Cary and his DVDP, though it could be read that way. He just said that file play sounded thinner than playing a CD with a CD player or DVD player.

I would not be terribly surprised if the analog stage of his CDP or his DVDP had a different output voltage than another chain he's using to play files.

Then again, we don't even know if the files he's talking about are actually ripped from the CD in question, or derive from somewhere else.

Ripped from the CD in question.

 

[Koeitje]

/me points at signature

 

[C3dr!c]

Even aside from the sighted listening and level matching issues that render your claim extremely dubious:

Was the wav file ripped from the CD?

And how did you verify that the 'DAC output is exactly the same"? If that's true the audio is exactly the same.

Ripped from the CD in question.

Even aside from the sighted listening and level matching issues that render your claim extremely dubious:

Was the wav file ripped from the CD?

And how did you verify that the 'DAC output is exactly the same"? If that's true the audio is exactly the same.

I asked Carry Audio for details about the conversion stage.
The curiosity of using 3 chips in parallel because I read a lot of contradictory reviews about it.

 

[C3dr!c]

/me points at signature

I could have sworn you were a human being though!?
So you're right.

 

[Mart68]

If both streamer and CD player are plugged into the same DAC at the same time and the DAC's two inputs had different sensitivities, could that not produce this difference?

 

[voodooless]

10 grand for 107 SINAD, impressive!

 

[voodooless]

Did you set the volume for all sources to the same level (page 18 of the manual)?

 

[kemmler3D]

Hello everyone,

I acquired a brand new Cary Audio DMC-600SE.
I confirm the phenomenon I mentioned earlier.
A notable difference between a 44.1KHz wav file and a CD.
I would define this by a much greater sound density on CD.
The CD is clearly superior to the audio file. To make an analogy, the CD would be a bowling ball and the file a soccer ball.
The DAC output of the DMC-600 is exactly the same regardless of the source.
To reduce this difference a little I have to upsample the file with the Cary to 176.4 KHz. but CD quality is still not achieved.
When I have the time and patience I will record a video.

Are you sure that the sources are producing the same voltage output for the speakers, and I mean *exactly* the same?

The quality could be unchanged, but if the volume varies by a 1-2 dB that could easily explain what you are hearing. It would not sound like an obvious change in volume but the quality seems to shift a bit.

e: Since you ripped the CD to WAV, and bits certainly are bits, it's either a level mismatch, or something is wrong with your DAC or CD Player.

 

[Killingbeans]

I would define this by a much greater sound density on CD.

Sounds like the CD output is higher in amplitude. Try some level matching.

 

[solderdude]

CD directly played on Cary Audio DMC-600SE sounds different from the same CD ripped to a file and then played back over the (same) DAC in the Cary Audio DMC-600SE ?

In this case the only difference would be the drive (internal or CD ripper) and data input (internal drive and signal input [USB, SPDIF or whatever]).

When placebo works for you I would simply be using the placebo.

I don't think you can record the differences (analog out from the Cary Audio DMC-600SE for both cases to a 192/24 soundcard) as there cannot be any difference.
When there truly is a difference it will be measurable/recordable and would mean there is some processing going on.

 

[C3dr!c]

Did you set the volume for all sources to the same level (page 18 of the manual)?

I use it as a source not as a preamp.

 

[BDWoody]

I could have sworn you were a human being though!?
So you're right.

Are you going to start with the snarky thing because you are disappointed we aren't buying into your story?

He is a human being who recognizes the weaknesses that are part of that condition.

Trying to do audio analysis as you are without making an effort to control for the bias inherent in being human will lead to results like you've gotten.

There is no mystery as to why you are hearing differences.

 

[voodooless]

I use it as a source not as a preamp.

So, can you exactly explain what is connected to what when playing a CD and the file? What software do you use to play the file?

 

[C3dr!c]

Sounds like the CD output is higher in amplitude. Try some level matching.

What I'm trying to say is not a question of level or bandwidth. It's more about the feeling of "fullness" of sound.
I would say it's like distinguishing between the timbre and the bandwidth of an instrument, they are two different perceptions.

 

[Blumlein 88]

What I'm trying to say is not a question of level or bandwidth. It's more about the feeling of "fullness" of sound.
I would say it's like distinguishing between the timbre and the bandwidth of an instrument, they are two different perceptions.

What you are describing is just about how it will sound if one is very slightly louder. Like a half db or something. You won't notice it sounding louder, but it will sound/feel like a quality difference.

If you cannot check and guarantee matched levels, you aren't getting past job #1 in comparisons.