I'd not ask this on any other forum....cables....

[Wombat]

Making the contact areas gas tight. There is quite a science to the behaviour of metal to metal surfaces, and when contaminants can intrude things get complicated, fast. Google "Ragnar Holm electrical contacts" to see what's out there.

Signal won't be attenuated with imperfect contacts, but they form an area of non-linear resistance very quickly when atmospheric gases are present. Yes, at very low resistances, but IME just enough to cause audible effects. Solution: clean the surfaces and immediately form a solid barrier which permeates the contact area, and excludes all contaminants - solder is ideal. The only other method that I found works are the silver greases and paints that are made for this job - used correctly, they are as effective as solder.

It's easy for anyone to see if this may be effective for their system, and hearing. Run the system for a bit, until everything is stabilised; then in a single exercise go through the whole system and "refresh" every contact, by unplugging and reconnecting, etc, from the source to the speakers; and then immediately listen again. If this appears to make absolutely no difference, then it's most likely not worth concerning yourself about this any more.

Nickel plating is durable, non- corrosive and has been an industry standard 'forever'. Gold is unnecessary, silver corrodes with sulphur in the air. Contact pressure should be firm.
If you have problems with connectors there is a problem with their mechanical fitness for purpose or the wrong ones(material compatibility) are utilised. Sound connections can be made with decent plugs and sockets - this is basic telephony engineering.

If in doubt, use what the commercial audio sound installations use. They get hard use and have to keep on performing.

Soldering can have even more issues in the work of the unknowledgeable and unskilful in the craft.

P.S. Is it really gold? http://www.sxwjdd.com/html_news/Imitation-gold-plating-process-11.html

 

[watchnerd]

Signal won't be attenuated with imperfect contacts, but they form an area of non-linear resistance very quickly when atmospheric gases are present. Yes, at very low resistances, but IME just enough to cause audible effects.

Audible effects like what?

 

[Thomas savage]

Audible effects like what?

Can’t hear the unicorn talking in the background on the track ‘ good times bad times’ by LZ.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

It would only be inflammatory if we had a membership of childish morons

I think people hear a difference between cables, amps, digital sources etc at times that might be because of actual (objectivity observable) differences in the signal as it passes through your system but more often than not it's down to factors to do with our own bias and the way we relate and interpret what our ears send to our brains.

So, the ear might send a similar set of instructions to the brain but those might be interpreted differently by our conscious mind.

If buggering about with cables and endlessly swapping out various boxes entertains you, I don't see why that should worry anybody else... other than your wife/better half ( if you have one )

Sounds like living hell to me, all I want to do is sit in the sweet spot in my chair or lay on my couch that's off to one side and listen to music. I never get bored of that

The logical thought process that audiophiles tend to use ( including myself at one point) is strikingly similar to prehistoric man.

This kind of thought process is what leads one to chop off heads to increase crop yields, ban folk from entering 'that part of the forest' for fear of offending the gods ( the last time jimmy went in there the village suffered terrible luck for weeks) etc etc etc

My favorite part of that post was naming the primitive, forest-jinxing man "Jimmy."

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Here is a cable-believer's nightmare . From here, this goes to cheap studio monitors, RCA to 1/4" (Mogami, FWIW). One if these days I'm going through a direct box to get XLR, so I can experiment with sub placement. Everything is getting power through the cables that came with the gear. As is, It's quiet and sounds really good.

Lots of guitars, amps and pro sound gear in the house. They mostly get Belden.

 

[fas42]

Audible effects like what?

A buzz phrase that some may like is "increased noise floor" - not fixed hum, buzz, hiss levels, but signal dependent, modulating detritus in the sound - it's the clean window syndrome; you think it's perfectly clear until another level of dirt removal takes place, say over half the pane, and then the difference is obvious .

In everyday listening, a scenario could go like this: you have a recording which the more you listen to it, the more it bugs you - you're glad when the track finishes, or you even stop it; and change to something more "pleasant". When you sort out this connection issue - if such happens to be an issue for your setup - then that same recording gets you going, and you go right to the end of the album, with a big smile planted on your face. That's how key it can be in the whole situation.

Yep, "gold" connections don't solve anything - went many iterations on that one. RCA is terrible, terrible, terrible - the way of manufacturing of many of the sockets alone adds to the problem. Another solution would be high quality crimping, that certainly gets enough pressure to bear on the metal surfaces. DIN as used by Naim is somewhat better, XLR if well made should improve again - Neutrik of course has got the reputation here.

I've found even sloppy soldering is better than doing nothing - unless a cold joint, it creates a stable link and maintains the SQ.

 

[fas42]

Can’t hear the unicorn talking in the background on the track ‘ good times bad times’ by LZ.

The local audio friend has been well trained by me - when he feels that his setup is sharp enough to pass the "big tests", he pulls out these tracks to see if it passes muster - the blundering mess that one often hears is a sad reminder of how bad an off tune rig can sound ...

 

[watchnerd]

modulating detritus in the sound -

I don't know what modulating detritus sounds like

Is it a harmonic distortion? IMD?

But you said it's definitely not just noise...

 

[fas42]

It's distortion - whether you wish to apply the tag HD or IMD is up to you - it's not about the transfer function being non-linear in a clearly defined way. Sometimes, distortion itself is rather messy - I recall an amplifier topology where at the peaks, in one direction only, under specific circumstances for the circuit as a whole, the operating conditions would become unstable, and a subtle oscillation would be overlaid on that peak, just for a transient moment. Definitely distortion - what tag should I apply to this?

The output waveform is no longer as precise a copy of the input as it could be - if the nature of the incorrectness is very close to random then I would call it noise, if it varies in some erratic or signal dependent fashion then I would call it distortion. The trouble is, it's low level, hard to measure - but unfortunately also audible.

 

[watchnerd]

a subtle oscillation would be overlaid on that peak, just for a transient moment. Definitely distortion - what tag should I apply to this?

Well that definitely sounds like harmonic distortion.

if it varies in some erratic or signal dependent fashion then I would call it distortion

Could be IMD...


But the problem with both of those is that they're highly unlikely to be the kind of thing you'd hear with a lose connection.

 

[fas42]

A loose, or poor connection certainly causes audible degradation: deliberately create such by weakening a solder joint, by mechanical straining it; or loosen off nuts holding down a connector. Just enough, so everything still works - most likely, there will be something not quite right with the sound - and all I'm talking about is a more subtle version of the same behaviour.

To get an idea of what factors can be relevant, here's a book chapter that delves into it, https://books.google.com.au/books?i...ved=0ahUKEwjrtJ31xtvXAhUorVQKHdLcD4EQ6AEIKDAA

 

[watchnerd]

A loose, or poor connection certainly causes audible degradation: deliberately create such by weakening a solder joint, by mechanical straining it; or loosen off nuts holding down a connector. Just enough, so everything still works - most likely, there will be something not quite right with the sound - and all I'm talking about is a more subtle version of the same behaviour.

To get an idea of what factors can be relevant, here's a book chapter that delves into it, https://books.google.com.au/books?id=YTjMBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA205&lpg=PA205&dq="6.1+Significance+of+electrical+contacts+reliability"&source=bl&ots=wBLCXis7Te&sig=Zakb41Ec3cm-U5NEO87dcxh7VtM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjrtJ31xtvXAhUorVQKHdLcD4EQ6AEIKDAA

solder doesn't magically make those issues go away

 

[Thomas savage]

Bit of DSP makes ‘ good times bad times ‘ sound ...., well you get all the notes...

 

[watchnerd]

Bit of DSP makes ‘ good times bad times sound’ ...., well you get all the notes...

I had forgotten just how awful the drums are on that track.

 

[Wombat]

A buzz phrase that some may like is "increased noise floor" - not fixed hum, buzz, hiss levels, but signal dependent, modulating detritus in the sound - it's the clean window syndrome; you think it's perfectly clear until another level of dirt removal takes place, say over half the pane, and then the difference is obvious .

In everyday listening, a scenario could go like this: you have a recording which the more you listen to it, the more it bugs you - you're glad when the track finishes, or you even stop it; and change to something more "pleasant". When you sort out this connection issue - if such happens to be an issue for your setup - then that same recording gets you going, and you go right to the end of the album, with a big smile planted on your face. That's how key it can be in the whole situation.

Yep, "gold" connections don't solve anything - went many iterations on that one. RCA is terrible, terrible, terrible - the way of manufacturing of many of the sockets alone adds to the problem. Another solution would be high quality crimping, that certainly gets enough pressure to bear on the metal surfaces. DIN as used by Naim is somewhat better, XLR if well made should improve again - Neutrik of course has got the reputation here.

I've found even sloppy soldering is better than doing nothing - unless a cold joint, it creates a stable link and maintains the SQ.

Possibly an RF issue.

 

[CuteStudio]

solder doesn't magically make those issues go away

The advantage of solder - assuming the things you are soldering together are clean to begin with - which a decent flux helps with immensely - is that the oxygen is locked out of the joint. Smear a little plumbers flux onto copper and you'll see it goes bright pink as the oxide is eliminated - so solder performs two functions (dry joints excepted!): 1) Clean 2) Seal.

As the creator of thousands of soldered connections is various amps etc I can't remember a failure, but I've had many dodgy connectors. The key is to have a hot soldering iron with a conservative blob of solder (this solder is just to get the heat transfer, you don't want a joint from cooked (dry) solder) and feed brand new resin cored solder straight into the joint and then leave ASAP.

As someone mentioned earlier a non-linearity forms as oxide builds up, what you are effectively creating is a small diode in the joint, even if the connection is initially good the oxide can still spread and affect the connection.

Tubes/valves are plugged into sockets and you may think should also suffer, but tubes have a 'trick' that our connectors don't, firstly the pins are usually pretty passive (not bare copper!!) and secondly most tube connections have a voltage bias on them ranging from a few volts to a few hundred volts, so a diode with even a voltage drop of 0.7v will just ride the voltage as a fixed offset and not affect the signal.

The connectors main problem is that it's pure AC voltage right in the middle of the most critical region (0v) - imagine a 0.8V signal running through a 0.7V drop diode, only 0.1v of the top of one signal half would get through. Oxide diodes on connectors are imperfect to the effect is more subtle, but will affect small signals more so the most critical is MC phono, then MM phono, then speaker and line are probably about the same for most listening.

It's entirely possible that some MM and MC preamp designs send a small medium voltage low current bias around the circuit but I don't know, it would seem to be an obvious upgrade though. Some expensive audio cables even have batteries for this IIRC, but as expensive audio cables are the work of the devil and snakeoil salesmen I don't use them. Also as there'll generally be a blocking capacitor at each end it won't work anyway.

If you're not able to solder up all your connections (for various practical reasons ) then at least make sure they are clean, tight (i.e. an RCA 'grips' as the signal and then as the shield goes in), and make sure you then use a persistent contact oil before you plug them in for good to keep the air off. I use ACF50 as I have it. I'd also change clamped speaker wire for soldered plugs and then make sure the plugs are tight and oiled as they go in, as oiling multi-strand wire can't be undone very easily if you want to solder it later...

 

[fas42]

I had forgotten just how awful the drums are on that track.

You see, this is what it's all about ... that track has absolutely wrong with it; it's an amazing journey of sound, that blew me away 30 years - fabulous!! A roller coaster ride of the first order - if a system can't take one on this journey with complete confidence and control then it's got problems - you don't need to "measure" to get answers; just listen, with the right material.

 

[fas42]

If you're not able to solder up all your connections (for various practical reasons ) then at least make sure they are clean, tight (i.e. an RCA 'grips' as the signal and then as the shield goes in), and make sure you then use a persistent contact oil before you plug them in for good to keep the air off. I use ACF50 as I have it. I'd also change clamped speaker wire for soldered plugs and then make sure the plugs are tight and oiled as they go in, as oiling multi-strand wire can't be undone very easily if you want to solder it later...

It's interesting that you've got acceptable results with oils - I experimented over some months, and never found it stable enough; it actually got worse than untreated contacts after some time.

 

[Wombat]

Soldering takes knowledge and practise. I have encountered many DIY amp builders on forums who promote silly trivial tweaks to their circuits(minutiae) - their posted pics reveal crap soldering ability and poor layout-much more important. This is seen on this forum in commercial products.

'There are too many dangerous audiophiles on the internet" is a quote I once saw. Uneducated and/or unskilled practitioners seem to think they are experts once they can say 'Ohms Law'. The gullible applaud their 'efforts'

Well designed connectors work well. They are proven over time.

In the subjective world excuses are found to buy new stuff. If one can just DIY-change a connector, cable, tube, support, player, DAC, etc. that is feel-good involvement - usually meaningless tinkering. That is not to say objectivists don't get caught-up, similarly, but differently.

Much supposition is applied to perceived audio performance issues with too little critical analysis and proof.

 

[CuteStudio]

It's interesting that you've got acceptable results with oils - I experimented over some months, and never found it stable enough; it actually got worse than untreated contacts after some time.

I'm sure the type of oil is quite important, ACF-50 is used in aircraft to combat corrosion so maybe that helps. It could still all go horribly wrong of course - as many things do - so we've got that going for us too

The best results I ever got with oil were on a OO/HO gauge railway in the garden. Tree sap from a couple of silver birches meant that I could start with shiny clean wheels and a (apparently) shiny clean track and after about four feet the train would stop with black stuff on the wheels.
As an experiment I oiled the track (luckily it was all flat as it does reduce grip quite a bit!!) and it would not only run around all day after that, but any loco would come back off the track with shiny clean wheels. I just used any oil to hand for that as I then built an 'oil-the-track' truck to push around at the beginning of a day.

Soldering

The worst solderers in my experience were the electronics engineers, the lab techies always got better joints LOL.