HDMI and DACs not evolving

[MCH]

The info in question is publicly available from HDMI.org

Screenshoted today at:

Registration to receive the HDMI Adopter Agreement

Become an HDMI® Adopter, Register to become an HDMI Adopters, License with HDMI

www.hdmi.org

Note as well that the licenses are an annual fee, probably not so easy to calculate how much is per device at the end of the day...

Edit: I see someone posted this already a few posts ago. Sorry for this

 

[JSmith]

Screenshoted today at:

Yep... I did do it today, just a page back.

HDMI and DACs not evolving

How about a Tonewinner pre-pro? If xlr is really important to you then perhaps finding an older Outlaw 975/976 (at least I think they had xlr too)

audiosciencereview.com

Hey at least we're on the same page... oh hang on.


JSmith

 

[sarumbear]

If these small shops are just: "I want to just put things together and sell them", then this bureaucracy may feel daunting.

From what I heard from a friend, this is less bureaucracy then getting a driving license in China!

Figuring all the pieces may cost a lot of time.

Which is why there are managers as well as designers and assembly staff...

 

[bungle]

upset about MQA licencing fees... I can hear those now saying they don't need HDMI and why are they paying for it or HDMI shouldn't be in an "audiophile" product etc. As is often the case... a two edged sword.

While MQA (does it survive or not, looks like it doesn't) battle is still going on. The HDMI has already won, and there is not going to be anything else in consumer space in foreseeable future, thus I think HDMI is a requirement (if omitted, the future might not looks so bright). The pro-audio has their own standards.

 

[Roland68]

Taking the $5,000 figure diving it to 500 units, you get an extra cost of $10 multiply this with 3, you get $30 price increase. This is around 10% on mid range and 5% on expensive Chinese DACs that are manufactured in small quantities. Much less than that on boutique manufacturers.

I do not think that the reasoning of $$$$$$$$$$ holds, especially for main manufacturers who ship to the main channels.

Even if I reply to a post, this is aimed at all users in this thread.

And what does the development cost?
How many thousand $/€ does each point cost and who pays for it?
- Developer who is familiar with the complex topic of HDMI including CEC and eARC
- Or purchase the complete service
- Ensuring the compatibility and functionality of all functions with the main devices on the market
- Cost of purchasing these devices (TV, game consoles, source devices, etc.) for testing
- What about firmware updates? How long should they be granted? That also has to be included in the purchase price, since a few thousand quickly add up

Also keep in mind that even with the big AVR manufacturers problems with HDMI and functions like CEC and eARC occur again and again, and that although many of them belong to the same group and can fall back on a large development department with a corresponding budget.

Do you really think the licensing costs are the problem?

 

[Sokel]

This is around 10% on mid range and 5% on expensive Chinese DACs that are manufactured in small quantities.

I never understood why we assume that the production is so small.
We're talking about companies operating in a country with 1.5 billion souls,a vast market.
Numbers must be much-much higher.

 

[sarumbear]

I never understood why we assume that the production is so small.
We're talking about companies operating in a country with 1.5 billion souls,a vast market.
Numbers must be much-much higher.

There is the small difference in buying power though. Almost $6,000 per month in the US vs $1,000 in China. Not many can afford a Hi-Fi system even if their market is five times larger.

 

[Sokel]

There is the small difference in buying power though. Almost $6,000 per month in the US vs $1,000 in China. Not many can afford a Hi-Fi system even if their market is five times larger.

Maybe your right and this can apply to an 2000-3000-10000$ device,but even with 1000$ a month you can get an 100-200$ devise like these cheap dacs.
Not a proven fact of course,just a guess.

 

[sarumbear]

Maybe your right and this can apply to an 2000-3000-10000$ device,but even with 1000$ a month you can get an 100-200$ devise like these cheap dacs.
Not a proven fact of course,just a guess.

It’s not only the DAC though isn’t it? You are talking about a Hi-Fi system where that DAC will be used, which will cost upwards of a couple of month’s salary. It will be difficult to justify spending that much over a decent a BT speaker that cost a fraction, or use a soundbar. Hi-Fi is an expensive hobby for the vast majority.

 

[kschmit2]

I think the cost comes from figuring out what needs to be licensed:
1. HDMI from HDMI organization
2. HDCP from Intel
3. What else is needed? If you want codecs, then I guess you needs to contact here and there.

If these small shops are just: "I want to just put things together and sell them", then this bureaucracy may feel daunting. Figuring all the pieces may cost a lot of time. But don't we have component makers that have figured this jungle already, and then you just purchase components and put them together (the component manufacturer does the licensing, same way as DAC chip can be bought, and you get DSD/PCM with it)?

spot on.

Here are the numbers for HDCP:

What is the smallest number of Device Key sets that can be purchased?
The quantities and prices for key orders are listed below:

Description	Cost (USD)
HDCP 1.x Transmitter or Receiver Key - Qty of 10,000	$2,000 USD
HDCP 1.x Transmitter or Receiver Key - Qty of 100,000	$5,000 USD
HDCP 1.x Transmitter or Receiver Key - Qty of 1,000,000	$10,000 USD
HDCP 2.x Annual Source Key Fee - Up to 100/year	$500 USD
HDCP 2.x Annual Source Key Fee - Up to 1K per year	$1,000 USD
HDCP 2.x Annual Source Key Fee - Up to 10K per year	$2,000 USD
HDCP 2.x Annual Source Key Fee - Up to 100K per year	$5,000 USD
HDCP 2.x Annual Source Key Fee - Up to 1M per year	$10,000 USD
HDCP 2.x Annual Source Key Fee - For quantities over 1M per year	$20,000 USD
HDCP 2.x Receiver Key - Qty of 10,000	$2,000 USD
HDCP 2.x Receiver Key - Qty of 100,000	$5,000 USD
HDCP 2.x Receiver Key - Qty of 1,000,000	$10,000 USD

If you need express processing for your license that's another $5,000 USD:

What is the cost for express processing?

$5,000 USD per "Multiplier".

source: https://www.digital-cp.com/faqs

And some more tidbits from the same source regarding compliance testing:

What are the testing requirements for HDCP, HDMI and Simplay Authorized Test Centers (ATCs)? Are logos and self-tests available?

The HDCP license agreement requires that devices be compliant, that is, meet the requirements of the HDCP specification and the Compliance Test Specification. The license agreement does not require any specific testing.
HDCP does not have a logo program. HDMI does have, but does not require a specific test to use it. The Simplay logo may only be used after a device has passed testing at a Simplay Labs facility. Here is a summary of testing requirements:
HDCP: Self-test, yes; logo program, no. Passing test at an Authorized Test Center (ATC) allows the device to be listed on digital-cp.com web site.
HDMI: Self-test, yes; logo program, no. Passing test at an ATC allows the device to be listed on hdmi.org web site.
Simplay: Self-test, no; logo program, yes. Passing test at an ATC allows the device to be listed on simplayhd.com web site.
Note: This information is correct at time of publication. Check HDMI and Simplay web sites for up-to-date test requirements.

 

[sarumbear]

Do you need HDCP for eARC? Isn’t the audio already encrypted by the device that is sending audio out?

 

[bungle]

Do you need HDCP for eARC? Isn’t the audio already encrypted by the device that is sending audio out?

Perhaps not. But I do not know the details. I am also not sure how that Dolby MAT 2.0 works exactly on DAC/ACR/AVP/Soundbar side.

 

[Roland68]

Do you need HDCP for eARC? Isn’t the audio already encrypted by the device that is sending audio out?

It must be decrypted in the receiving device.
That's exactly the problem you always have with audio with HDMI.

 

[sarumbear]

Perhaps not. But I do not know the details. I am also not sure how that Dolby MAT 2.0 works exactly on DAC/ACR/AVP/Soundbar side.

Or you use a “compatible” HDMI splitter

Top 5 HDMI Splitters To Bypass HDCP & How-To Guide

What To Know Connect an HDMI splitter between your laptop/streaming device and the TV/projector to bypass HDCP errors during streaming. The top 5 HDMI splitters for HDCP bypassing are OREI, ViewHD, EZCOO, AVFABUL, and KELIIYO,

pointerclicker.com

 

[Chrispy]

What do you mean btw. with 2ch silliness/nonsense? You mean measurements gone crazy or highendism (the outer shell costs way more than the inner parts that matter)?

I was referring more to the latter and all the bullshit "audiophile" nonsense

 

[Roland68]

In addition to the development costs in Post #125, there are other costs and technical problems to consider.

I only find Panasonic HDMI chips in all the AVRs, and they shouldn't be cheap either.

There is also the problem with the volume control via CEC.
In order to avoid someone burning their loudspeakers or power amplifiers because the volume is (suddenly) at full deflection, an analog volume control would also have to be integrated. It doesn't matter whether it's via a JRC chip, analog motor potentiometer, digitally controlled chip like in AVRs or a relay-based solution.
But these are additional costs.

 

[bungle]

There is also the problem with the volume control via CEC.
In order to avoid someone burning their loudspeakers or power amplifiers because the volume is (suddenly) at full deflection.

Isn’t there an ongoing thread in this forum where Topping fried speakers and where Topping causes click and noise on Toslink. Seems like you won’t need HDMI/CEC for that, Toslink is all you need and then just implementations that don’t protect you from this kind of happenings.

 

[bungle]

I only find Panasonic HDMI chips in all the AVRs, and they shouldn't be cheap either.

Quick search reveals that from AliExpresss you can get these for about 6 €. Not sure what is the price e.g. Denon pays, perhaps somewhere around 1 €.

 

[pau]

In addition to the development costs in Post #125, there are other costs and technical problems to consider.

I only find Panasonic HDMI chips in all the AVRs, and they shouldn't be cheap either.

There is also the problem with the volume control via CEC.
In order to avoid someone burning their loudspeakers or power amplifiers because the volume is (suddenly) at full deflection, an analog volume control would also have to be integrated. It doesn't matter whether it's via a JRC chip, analog motor potentiometer, digitally controlled chip like in AVRs or a relay-based solution.
But these are additional costs.

Actually very good point i didnt even think. Worth to develop inside DAC max volume limiter setting. shouldnt be too hard couple lines of code and add it with other settings to same GUI.

 

[MCH]

Or you use a “compatible” HDMI splitter

Top 5 HDMI Splitters To Bypass HDCP & How-To Guide

What To Know Connect an HDMI splitter between your laptop/streaming device and the TV/projector to bypass HDCP errors during streaming. The top 5 HDMI splitters for HDCP bypassing are OREI, ViewHD, EZCOO, AVFABUL, and KELIIYO,

pointerclicker.com

Hey Sarumbear, off topic question for you (and others) if you don't mind. I have an amazon fire stick that I can connect to a HDMI sound extractor to extract spdif to a dac and then HDMI out to my TV. No issues with the sound part of the setup.

However when I use the extractor I don't like how the fire stick interacts with the TV. Instead of a the nice integration i have when i connect them directly, when the extractor is in between the tv just sees a "dumb" hdmi signal and I need to go to submenus to access it, some functionalities don't work, etc etc.

Anyways, when I saw your post with the HDMI splitters (I didn't know such a thing exists) I thought that maybe I could connect the stick to the splitter input and then one output to the TV and another one to the extractor.
My question is, will the TV and stick behave as if they were connected directly with nothing in between or do these splitters behave like the sound extractors?
thanks in advance for your answers.