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HDMI and DACs not evolving

kschmit2

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Quick search reveals that from AliExpresss you can get these for about 6 €. Not sure what is the price e.g. Denon pays, perhaps somewhere around 1 €.
in the end you are looking at a couple of dollars here, a couple of dollars there and so on, plus implementation costs and legal fees. Add these up and you are probably looking at around USD 15-20 per device for volumes up to 1000 units. These are BOM costs, so retail means USD 30-60 per unit.
 

sarumbear

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My question is, will the TV and stick behave as if they were connected directly with nothing in between or do these splitters behave like the sound extractors?
thanks in advance for your answers.
I have no idea I’m afraid.
 
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sarumbear

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in the end you are looking at a couple of dollars here, a couple of dollars there and so on, plus implementation costs and legal fees. Add these up and you are probably looking at around USD 15-20 per device for volumes up to 1000 units. These are BOM costs, so retail means USD 30-60 per unit.
Which is around 10% or lower increase in the price. Shouldn’t being the only HDMI input DAC kudos justify that small price increase?
 
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pau

pau

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Also companies like miniDSP could create small universal HDMI board to add to whole range via interconnections. Then its just creating the interfaces, data transfer circuits in digital domain, decoders, add functionality, GUI and so on to utilize the HDMI goodies.
 

deadwood83

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The ToneWinner looks like a gem, but I have to buy from alibabba? No choice?
It;s the Emotiva MC-1 with different color solder mask, different output connectivity, and more frequent firmware updates. You can see the PCBs are identical.
 

bungle

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That SVS Prime Soundbase is good example. They had almost the same version without eARC. The original model cost 699$. They added eARC and new model costs 699$. Old one you can now find discounted.
 

sarumbear

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That SVS Prime Soundbase is good example. They had almost the same version without eARC. The original model cost 699$. They added eARC and new model costs 699$. Old one you can now find discounted.
And they are not a major AV manufacturer who can otherwise burry license fees for the Hi-Fi products within their main line of AV products. In fact they are a small boutique company.

I’m sure Topping and Sabaj are already following this thread with interest :)
 

Roland68

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Quick search reveals that from AliExpresss you can get these for about 6 €. Not sure what is the price e.g. Denon pays, perhaps somewhere around 1 €.
Prices are closer to $20 or more for quantities.
Do you really think that Panasonic sells such a complex chip with so much computing power for such a ridiculous price? Cheaper than some OPAmps? Or cheaper than XMOS chips?
All you get on Aliexpress are completely outdated chips (several generations old), unsoldered parts, fake ones or the troubled chips from 2020 that Denon and Marantz also had problems with and nobody wants anymore.

If you really buy such high quality Chips, OPAmps etc from Aliexpress, just consider it as a donation.
Of course, there are also reputable electronic components dealers in China, but they are not cheaper than the well-known distributors.
 

sarumbear

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Prices are closer to $20 or more for quantities.
Do you really think that Panasonic sells such a complex chip with so much computing power for such a ridiculous price? Cheaper than some OPAmps? Or cheaper than XMOS chips?
All you get on Aliexpress are completely outdated chips (several generations old), unsoldered parts, fake ones or the troubled chips from 2020 that Denon and Marantz also had problems with and nobody wants anymore.
A) It will be nice if you support your $20 vs $1 argument with data
B) You don’t need most recent HDMI chip for stereo. Even HDMI 1.0 from 2002 supports 8-channel LPCM/192 kHz/24-bit audio.
 
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pau

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No point to make any other than eARC moving forward as the future devices & codex stay indeed better supported and the signal chain, heartbeats and so on are vastly improved.

Compared to existing home theater audio connectivity methods, HDMI 2.1 eARC provides a number of improvements:
1. eARC is the only forward-compatible solution, which ensures that the AVR will continue to work with newer televisions
2. Delivers uncompromised, full audio quality with nearly 30 times the bandwidth of optical
3. Engineered for far better inter-brand interoperability
4. Is easier to use
5. Simpler connectivity

Delivering Forward Compatibility

eARC delivers forward compatibility by removing the audio device from the video path. With a conventional AVR system, both the audio and video flow from source devices through the AVR and onto the TV.

Very often, a consumer’s TV and AVR are made by different manufacturers. eARC is designed to ensure exceptional compatibility and interoperability between these mixed-brand TV and AVR connections. The improved compatibility comes about firstly because video doesn’t flow through the AVR, and because the discovery mechanism of eARC is brand-new and dedicated specifically to audio devices and format discovery, as described below.
HDMI eARC is a must-have feature to look for when shopping for an HDMI AVR or sound bar because eARC is the only way to ensure future compatibility with HDMI 2.1 devices. In addition to future compatibility, eARC brings substantial improvements in simplicity, audio performance, and compatibility over any other audio interface, and is designed to last decades into the future.

Technical Details

How does eARC work?
eARC transmits a high bitrate audio signal from the television to the audio device using an HDMI with Ethernet cable. This cable was designed in HDMI 1.4. An HDMI with Ethernet cable has the same connector and pins as an ordinary HDMI cable. However, inside an HDMI with Ethernet cable, pins 14, 15 and 19 are constructed as a twisted, shielded pair – originally intended to serve as an Ethernet channel alongside HDMI. In HDMI cables without the Ethernet feature, these are simply straight-through pins, which cannot support transmission of the eARC signal.
The eARC signal transmitted by the television is similar to the format of a SPDIF audio signal, but it is transmitted at up to 98 megabits per second. Because of the protocol overhead, the maximum raw audio speed is about 37 megabits per second, which is the rate of eight channels of 192 kHz, 24-bit uncompressed PCM audio. (8 x 192,000 x 24 ≈ 36,864,000 bits per second

A one megabit per second, bi-directional data signal is modulated on top of the eARC audio signal. This bi-directional signal is used to allow the eARC TV to discover the eARC audio device. This data signal has several other functions: It allows the TV to read a list of audio formats supported by the audio device, allows the TV to send lip sync correction data, and it lets the audio device send regular “heartbeat” signals to the television, letting the television know that its built-in speaker should be muted. These data-related signals are mandatory in eARC devices. None of these signals are available in optical (TOSLINK) or SPDIF audio, and are optional in the older HDMI-ARC audio.



Full read in the PDF
 

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Trell

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No point to make any other than eARC moving forward as the future devices & codex stay indeed better supported and the signal chain, heartbeats and so on are vastly improved.

Compared to existing home theater audio connectivity methods, HDMI 2.1 eARC provides a number of improvements:
1. eARC is the only forward-compatible solution, which ensures that the AVR will continue to work with newer televisions
2. Delivers uncompromised, full audio quality with nearly 30 times the bandwidth of optical
3. Engineered for far better inter-brand interoperability
4. Is easier to use
5. Simpler connectivity

Delivering Forward Compatibility

eARC delivers forward compatibility by removing the audio device from the video path. With a conventional AVR system, both the audio and video flow from source devices through the AVR and onto the TV.

Very often, a consumer’s TV and AVR are made by different manufacturers. eARC is designed to ensure exceptional compatibility and interoperability between these mixed-brand TV and AVR connections. The improved compatibility comes about firstly because video doesn’t flow through the AVR, and because the discovery mechanism of eARC is brand-new and dedicated specifically to audio devices and format discovery, as described below.
HDMI eARC is a must-have feature to look for when shopping for an HDMI AVR or sound bar because eARC is the only way to ensure future compatibility with HDMI 2.1 devices. In addition to future compatibility, eARC brings substantial improvements in simplicity, audio performance, and compatibility over any other audio interface, and is designed to last decades into the future.

Technical Details

How does eARC work?
eARC transmits a high bitrate audio signal from the television to the audio device using an HDMI with Ethernet cable. This cable was designed in HDMI 1.4. An HDMI with Ethernet cable has the same connector and pins as an ordinary HDMI cable. However, inside an HDMI with Ethernet cable, pins 14, 15 and 19 are constructed as a twisted, shielded pair – originally intended to serve as an Ethernet channel alongside HDMI. In HDMI cables without the Ethernet feature, these are simply straight-through pins, which cannot support transmission of the eARC signal.
The eARC signal transmitted by the television is similar to the format of a SPDIF audio signal, but it is transmitted at up to 98 megabits per second. Because of the protocol overhead, the maximum raw audio speed is about 37 megabits per second, which is the rate of eight channels of 192 kHz, 24-bit uncompressed PCM audio. (8 x 192,000 x 24 ≈ 36,864,000 bits per second

A one megabit per second, bi-directional data signal is modulated on top of the eARC audio signal. This bi-directional signal is used to allow the eARC TV to discover the eARC audio device. This data signal has several other functions: It allows the TV to read a list of audio formats supported by the audio device, allows the TV to send lip sync correction data, and it lets the audio device send regular “heartbeat” signals to the television, letting the television know that its built-in speaker should be muted. These data-related signals are mandatory in eARC devices. None of these signals are available in optical (TOSLINK) or SPDIF audio, and are optional in the older HDMI-ARC audio.



Full read in the PDF

And then there is the real world as opposed to the marketing blurb you quoted from.

HDMI interoperability between devices is a long standing issue. Same for HDCP.

None of that is solved by a new version of HDMI, including eARC.
 

bungle

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it is transmitted at up to 98 megabits per second. Because of the protocol overhead, the maximum raw audio speed is about 37 megabits per second, which is the rate of eight channels of 192 kHz, 24-bit uncompressed PCM audio. (8 x 192,000 x 24 ≈ 36,864,000 bits per second

What kind of protocol is that if 2/3 is ”wasted” to protocol overhead?
 
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pau

pau

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And then there is the real world as opposed to the marketing blurb you quoted from.

HDMI interoperability between devices is a long standing issue. Same for HDCP.

None of that is solved by a new version of HDMI, including eARC.
Have had Nvidia RTX 3000 series from launch with HDMI 2.1 connected to TV no problems ever. I think vast majority of the issues in the AVR industry was because bad chip design or manufactoring and are allready fixed with current generations. Atleast i remember the early problems pinpointed during the chip shortage to some universal used component in the AVRs.

Might there been also other prroblems im not aware?
 

Roland68

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A) It will be nice if you support your $20 vs $1 argument with data
B) You don’t need most recent HDMI chip for stereo. Even HDMI 1.0 from 2002 supports 8-channel LPCM/192 kHz/24-bit audio.
I know the prices from four years ago from a project by a manufacturer in the photo/video sector. Currently, prices in all semiconductor areas have risen sharply, so that they are higher rather than lower. Currently try to get a Panasonic MN864797A or a MN864807A.

to B
But why would I need HDMI without eARC and CEC?
I can get 192kHz/24-bit audio over SPDIF just as well.
A long time ago I bought an HDMI extractor for 37 € on i2s (PCM and DSD). I use it to feed sources such as my OPPO player or streamer with HDMI directly into my DAC. Since the DAC chip is fed with i2s, it doesn't get any better.
 

sarumbear

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And then there is the real world as opposed to the marketing blurb you quoted from.

HDMI interoperability between devices is a long standing issue. Same for HDCP.

None of that is solved by a new version of HDMI, including eARC.
True but there are way more set top boxes, game consoles that works around the globe. HDMI incompatibility is an issue but not a market breaker as you seem to suggest.
 

sarumbear

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I know the prices from four years ago from a project by a manufacturer in the photo/video sector. Currently, prices in all semiconductor areas have risen sharply, so that they are higher rather than lower. Currently try to get a Panasonic MN864797A or a MN864807A.

to B
But why would I need HDMI without eARC and CEC?
I can get 192kHz/24-bit audio over SPDIF just as well.
A long time ago I bought an HDMI extractor for 37 € on i2s (PCM and DSD). I use it to feed sources such as my OPPO player or streamer with HDMI directly into my DAC. Since the DAC chip is fed with i2s, it doesn't get any better.
A is your very old personal knowledge
As for B, I cannot see what your reply has any relation to what I said: you don’t need the latest HDMI version for audio only hence old chips works.
 

Trell

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True but there are way more set top boxes, game consoles that works around the globe. HDMI incompatibility is an issue but not a market breaker as you seem to suggest.
Depends on which part of market, I guess, and how large the manufacturer is.
 
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