Genelec in large room: waste of money?

[mkush]

Hello. My first post so forgive me if it’s dumb! I’m designing a system for my living room, which has a fairly large volume and not-too-close listening distance.

The room is roughly 6.5m x 6.5m and has a high, non-uniform (vaulted) ceiling which I’m guessing ranges from 5m to 6.5m. This gives a rather large volume.

The speakers will be close to one wall and the listening position (couch) will be close to the other wall and have windows just behind it. It’s probably 5-5.5m speakers to listening.

Looking at the Genelec charts, nothing seems like it is really recommended. I don’t know what to make of this. Should I conclude that they would be a waste of money? Is the room a lost cause?

I’m mostly interested in the SAM (digital input) ones. I know those will let me do room compensation adjustments. But still, maybe this room is not so easily fixed, especially if I’m working against physics.

The other thing worth pointing out is that I don’t see listening at terribly loud volumes in general. The system will be used for movies/shows as well as music. I’m only interested in 2-channel stereo.

Thoughts? Thanks in advance.

 

[dshreter]

Forgetting room size, how far do you sit from your speakers? That’s the more important aspect.

 

[mkush]

Forgetting room size, how far do you sit from your speakers? That’s the more important aspect.

Thanks. I discussed that above somewhat. I’d say 5-5.5m. The couch is near the back wall, which is composed nearly entirely of windows. That also makes me nervous.

 

[mcdn]

Looking at the Genelec charts, nothing seems like it is really recommended. I don’t know what to make of this. Should I conclude that they would be a waste of money? Is the room a lost cause?

You mean the chart here? https://www.genelec.com/correct-monitors

Ignore the room volumes, just go to the column for 5m listening distance and it shows very roughly the short and long term SPL you will achieve (presumably with one speaker). All bar two will do over 90dB long term average, why don't you think they would be suitable?

 

[mkush]

Yes, the charts (that one and the others) on that page. Wondering about suitability because I figured the room volumes were there for a reason.

 

[dshreter]

Thanks. I discussed that above somewhat. I’d say 5-5.5m. The couch is near the back wall, which is composed nearly entirely of windows. That also makes me nervous.

Ah, sorry I overlooked that! It’s a very compromised setup: angles are going to be off, and seating near a wall is problematic.

I dont think it’s worthwhile spending a ton of money on super high fidelity speakers in that situation.

Do you have any flexibility with the seating?

 

[mkush]

Ah, sorry I overlooked that!

That’s OK! I’m thankful for any help.

 

[mcdn]

Yes, the charts (that one and the others) on that page. Wondering about suitability because I figured the room volumes were there for a reason.

Well, with the high ceilings you'll get less reflected energy from above, but you'll still get the direct, sidewall and floor reflections so I don't think it matters much. If you reference Genelec's other positioning diagrams you'll see they have the "listener" in a professional situation in the middle of the room, so they're just providing a way for someone who knows the room volume but not dimensions to have a guess in a professional situation. For domestic listening just worry about the distances.

Since you'll be putting the speakers near the wall you'll get some bass gain there as well (and no, despite what people say, it's not a problem. With room correction it's actually a benefit! see https://www.genelec.com/monitor-placement)

As for sitting near to a glass back wall, it's not great but GLM will help with any bass and tonality issues, and so much of your sound field will be reverberant rather than direct it won't matter too much.

 

[mkush]

Thanks so much! So, given my room issues, you think the Genelecs would still be significantly better than cheaper options, or do the room issues become the limiting factor?

 

[mcdn]

Thanks so much! So, given my room issues, you think the Genelecs would still be significantly better than cheaper options, or do the room issues become the limiting factor?

Room correction is something I personally consider to be mandatory. Not using it seems so wasteful of good speakers, whatever the price!

The thing is there aren't many "easy" room correction options. Genelec is pretty good but you have to like the industrial look of the speakers, and it's still fairly technical to interact with the room correction. A Lyngdorf TDAI-1120 would be my alternate recommendation for more user friendly room correction, with a pair of subwoofers and nice passive speakers attached, say KEF R3s?

There may be other user-friendly options available (MiniDSP with Dirac?, NAD with Dirac?) but I haven't tried them, whereas I can vouch for the Lyngdorf system. Of course any AV receiver with Odyssey MultEQ XT32 will also do the job but they tend to have other compromises.

 

[Purité Audio]

The larger 8361s might be ok at 5m but the smaller ones I have my doubts we had the previous generation flagship 8260 with a couple of subs in a similar sized room.
Keith

 

[Sokel]

Well, with the high ceilings you'll get less reflected energy from above, but you'll still get the direct, sidewall and floor reflections so I don't think it matters much. If you reference Genelec's other positioning diagrams you'll see they have the "listener" in a professional situation in the middle of the room, so they're just providing a way for someone who knows the room volume but not dimensions to have a guess in a professional situation. For domestic listening just worry about the distances.

Since you'll be putting the speakers near the wall you'll get some bass gain there as well (and no, despite what people say, it's not a problem. With room correction it's actually a benefit! see https://www.genelec.com/monitor-placement)

As for sitting near to a glass back wall, it's not great but GLM will help with any bass and tonality issues, and so much of your sound field will be reverberant rather than direct it won't matter too much.

The use of DSP for correcting FR will reduce levels further and in OP's case seems will be needing a lot of this (we are talking about a square room).

A room like this needs serious air pushing and at 5.5 meters will be maybe enough for max volume but not peaks.
It will be in permanent clipping there.There's a reason Genelec makes this big speakers at the bottom of the chart.

 

[mcdn]

Damn Keith you must like it loud! My room is 5m x 6m, and 4m high. So long as the bass is taken care of by subs, it doesn't take heroic speakers to get louder than is comfortable for most people.

 

[olegtern]

What is the budget? Because they are different, big Genelecs can fit, small ones hardly. Subwoofers are desirable in any case.

I would look at something like JBL 4367 or M2 for such a room.

 

[mcdn]

I know a 6m x 6m room sounds pretty large but it's really not for "normal" listening. THX reference levels, yes, gotta go big (edit: more fool me, just checked and THX reference _is_ 85db at the listening position!). But 85dB average at the listening position is the threshold of hearing damage if exposed long term. It's loud.

OK not everyone will agree with 85dB at the listening position, but taking it as a starting point you can add +3dB for a second speaker. Add 20dB for peaks and you need 82/102dB at 5 metres on the Genelec chart. Every speaker there can do that (in pairs) except the 8320A, 8330A and 8331A. Add subs and you're off to the races.

 

[Triliza]

I don't think the spl would be that much of a problem for that distance (I am at 4 meters), I'd think even the TV speakers can get loud enough (can they op?). As already said, if you want to feel the bass, consider getting one or two subs, and put the rest of your budget in the best speakers you can get. I don't see why SAM Genelecs wouldn't be a good choice, but that mean you have to get Genelecs subs too.

 

[Leporello]

I think one of the problems will be reflections, not just loudness. The room is large with speakers on one end and the listener on the other. This means that direct sound from the speakers will be only a small portion of the total sound reaching the ears while reflections will dominate the sound almost completely. This is why most smallish Genelecs and other small monitors are called near field monitors: they are meant to be listened at close range.

 

[Sancus]

Depends on the dynamic range of the content you listen to. At an average listening level of 75dB, which is fairly moderate for most people, there's plenty of classical that will exceed 100dB briefly. And of course, plenty of HT content as well. It's very hard to tell when stuff like that is being compressed if you're not familiar with what it sounds like on a system that has sufficient output.

If you're mainly listening to low dynamic range music then it isn't an issue.

At 5m, you need at least 9-10dB more at the speaker than you'll get at the listening position.

I think one of the problems will be reflections, not just loudness. The room is large with speakers on one end and the listener on the other. This means that direct sound from the speakers will be only a small portion of the total sound reaching the ears while reflections will dominate the sound almost completely. This is why most smallish Genelecs and other small monitors are called near field monitors: they are meant to be listened at close range.

Direct sound dominance is not something typically considered desirable in home listening. It's actually the opposite that tends to win the blind tests. And in any case, almost nobody(certainly not Neumann/Genelec) makes monitors suitable for listening past 5m in a room the size of the OP's.

There's some really big misconceptions about critical distance and speaker types. It's mainly affected by room size, NOT by the speaker.

 

[Leporello]

Direct sound dominance is not something typically considered desirable in home listening. It's actually the opposite that tends to win the blind tests. And in any case, almost nobody(certainly not Neumann/Genelec) makes monitors suitable for listening past 5m in a room the size of the OP's.

This is why the OP should perhaps save his money and not buy Genelecs or other high quality monitors designed for very different scenarios. The Genelecs probably will not make the sound any worse but their sonic potential may be largely wasted.

 

[mcdn]

And in any case, almost nobody(certainly not Neumann/Genelec) makes monitors suitable for listening past 5m in a room the size of the OP's.

It's not the design goal of the speakers, but what makes them unsuitable? I'd be delighted with a pair of 8361As. Add some W371 woofers and I'd be in heaven. The neighbours might complain, even though we're on a large detached block!