Genelec in large room: waste of money?

[olegtern]

There's some really big misconceptions about critical distance and speaker types. It's mainly affected by room size, NOT by the speaker.

Critical distance is dependent on the geometry and absorption of the space, as well as the dimensions and shape of the sound source. (Wiki)

E.g. Danley SH50 with 50 degrees vs MBL with 360 degrees will affect the same room differently.

 

[Sancus]

It's not the design goal of the speakers, but what makes them unsuitable? I'd be delighted with a pair of 8361As. Add some W371 woofers and I'd be in heaven. The neighbours might complain, even though we're on a large detached block!

I mean suitable if you want direct sound dominance. The problem is that to actually get that at long distances, you need hyper-narrow directivity. But Neumann/Genelec simply do not make hyper-narrow directivity speakers, and in fact even finding any that measure well is pretty hard. Most of them are PA speakers or weird boutique HiFi both with garbage measurements.

Basically all Genelecs for example are around the 100-120 degree mark(+/-50 to 60 degrees). The differences seen in their "correct monitor" chart are primarily because the room sizes are very different. They use a simplified approximation formula that takes RT60, room volume, and speaker directivity as the variables.

If you don't want direct sound dominance, then output is the only thing that matters and you don't care about the nearfield/farfield talk at all, it's not relevant.

This is why the OP should perhaps save his money and not buy Genelecs or other high quality monitors designed for very different scenarios. The Genelecs probably will not make the sound any worse but their sonic potential may be largely wasted.

The idea that "direct sound dominance" has anything to do with quality isn't really supported by anything. The speakers that tend to win among stereo listeners are actually very wide dispersion, like the Revel Salon 2 or Philharmonic BMRs. Plus you need reflections to fill in the nulls created by acoustic crosstalk.

Genelecs are fairly average in terms of dispersion width, they're not really narrow, they're not super wide either. So they don't have any particular advantage or disadvantage for home use, other than aesthetics.

 

[mcdn]

I mean suitable if you want direct sound dominance.

Ah, understood. Well no, like you say almost nothing is. Thankfully that's not what the OP is after.

 

[mkush]

Ah, sorry I overlooked that! It’s a very compromised setup: angles are going to be off, and seating near a wall is problematic.

I dont think it’s worthwhile spending a ton of money on super high fidelity speakers in that situation.

Do you have any flexibility with the seating?

I realized that I didn’t answer your question. No, I have no flexibility in seating. That’s my main worry… that I am going to spend a ton of money on something that’s never going to sound great anyway.

 

[mkush]

Room correction is something I personally consider to be mandatory. Not using it seems so wasteful of good speakers, whatever the price!

The thing is there aren't many "easy" room correction options. Genelec is pretty good but you have to like the industrial look of the speakers, and it's still fairly technical to interact with the room correction. A Lyngdorf TDAI-1120 would be my alternate recommendation for more user friendly room correction, with a pair of subwoofers and nice passive speakers attached, say KEF R3s?

There may be other user-friendly options available (MiniDSP with Dirac?, NAD with Dirac?) but I haven't tried them, whereas I can vouch for the Lyngdorf system. Of course any AV receiver with Odyssey MultEQ XT32 will also do the job but they tend to have other compromises.

That Lyngdorf piece is very interesting! Thanks for the tip; I’ll look into that.

 

[mkush]

What is the budget? Because they are different, big Genelecs can fit, small ones hardly. Subwoofers are desirable in any case.

I would look at something like JBL 4367 or M2 for such a room.

Honestly the Genelecs are past the desired budget, before factoring in subs, which I hoped were not necessary. So if I’m not going to get fantastic results out of this, it’s probably not worth me spending the money on it.

 

[mkush]

I don't think the spl would be that much of a problem for that distance (I am at 4 meters), I'd think even the TV speakers can get loud enough (can they op?). As already said, if you want to feel the bass, consider getting one or two subs, and put the rest of your budget in the best speakers you can get. I don't see why SAM Genelecs wouldn't be a good choice, but that mean you have to get Genelecs subs too.

Can TV speakers get loud enough? I can’t say because I haven’t installed a TV there yet. Still in a box in the garage

 

[Leporello]

Genelecs are fairly average in terms of dispersion width, they're not really narrow, they're not super wide either. So they don't have any particular advantage or disadvantage for home use, other than aesthetics.

Maybe not. But they were designed for near field listening. The op will be paying dearly for sonic benefits which are best realised in a listening scenario very different from his. The op's scenario is far from ideal anyway.

 

[Cote Dazur]

do the room issues become the limiting factor?

The room and even more where the speakers are located and where you sit is always the limiting factor. Before you invest in any “upgrade” speakers you might want to (if it is possible) move the seat away from the back wall, place your actual speakers away from front wall and side walls, if only temporarily as a test, and listen to the changes. It will demonstrate to you what the placement brings to the table (and might save you money).
Once you know what needs to be done to get the result you are seeking, it will be easier either to accept the situation with the limitations or make all the changes to get the sound you are looking for.
Congratulation on an excellent question as your first post.

 

[Mr. Widget]

It seems most of the comments are about achieving a sufficient SPL... that is hardly a challenge, but I see two issues here.

1. Placing the speakers against a wall and sitting against the far wall will likely produce uneven bass in the room. DSP can help here.

2. The reverberant nature of the space will likely make imaging very vague and probably make movie soundtracks much less intelligible. Think of the sound quality of a train station or airport. Obviously these are extremes, but this is what you will be fighting on a smaller scale.

In my projects when faced with this type of problem I use line arrays instead of point source designs. The line array will be less impacted by the reverberant nature of the room and will also have half the rate of SPL fall off over the distance. These are the reasons that all modern PA systems are designed around line arrays.

 

[muslhead]

Honestly the Genelecs are past the desired budget, before factoring in subs, which I hoped were not necessary. So if I’m not going to get fantastic results out of this, it’s probably not worth me spending the money on it.

This is exactly the dilemma i am faced with. Different speaker but same scenario for me. Some people dont care about that concern and just go with it. If you are like me (and what i perceive you are like) the fact is i spent more than i needed to will continue to haunt you after you purchase. If so, i would spend less, find something that in your situation, will provide a very similar result for less money. Pocket the savings and have it ready for when your room situation changes such that you can enjoy all the Genelec benefits (and costs) without the baggage they bring if purchased now.

 

[dshreter]

What's going to be important is providing some type of acoustic treatment over the rear wall. Sitting right next to the rear wall you will have very strong reflections and comb filtering, and acoustic treatment (not electronic room correction) is the only really effective way to deal with that.

Genelec speakers won't do anything that makes them inappropriate for your room, but they are so expensive because they achieve ruler flat response and very smooth directivity. Those attributes are never bad, but they will be hard to fully appreciate when the acoustics of the room are drastically altering the frequency response at the listening position.

 

[Tangband]

It's not the design goal of the speakers, but what makes them unsuitable? I'd be delighted with a pair of 8361As. Add some W371 woofers and I'd be in heaven. The neighbours might complain, even though we're on a large detached block!

A 8361 is as fine as a kef ls 60 w or a revel floorstander . There is a lot of desinformation about suitable distances between different speakers on this forum. If the needed SPL is good enough, a good measuring loudspeaker by Amirm and the Klippel system gonna sound good regardless If the listening distance are 2 meter or 6 meter.
If its not sounding good in a big room, the max SPL might be to low of you havent treated your room enough with room acoustic damping material.

In my experience , a loudspeaker that have a wide and good directivity sounds better than a speaker with good, narrow directivity - even in a big room. This only apply for 2 channel listening. The reason for this is the wide, good directivity speakers have a bigger chance to let the late wall reflections in a big room fill up the soundstage, which is needed in a good 2 channel system.

For 5 channel listening its the opposite , the sound gets better with good directivity, but narrow sound spreading loudspeakers. Such as a horn jbl or klipsch.

 

[Triliza]

Can TV speakers get loud enough? I can’t say because I haven’t installed a TV there yet. Still in a box in the garage

That was more to make my point that you'll be able to play relatively loud in that distance. As I see it, the Genelecs (8361 I assume) should be placed near the front wall, so one less problem to worry about, they are bass heavy (based on Amir review) so you may not even need a sub, since the rear wall has a window, put some heavy curtains in it (or whatever the more experienced members here suggest), and hopefully SAM will help the situation a little bit more. In the end, the room will win, but that doesn't mean you should go down without a fight, just do your best within your allocated budget.

The other route would be a MiniDSP (with Dirac) + amp (you'll need some more power for that distance) + passive speakers (+ sub probably). You'll have to do the math, because this will may not come much cheaper that the actives speaker solution.

 

[Mr. Widget]

So, given my room issues, you think the Genelecs would still be significantly better than cheaper options, or do the room issues become the limiting factor?

Your room will not be your friend, but it is what you have.

What's going to be important is providing some type of acoustic treatment over the rear wall. Sitting right next to the rear wall you will have very strong reflections and comb filtering, and acoustic treatment (not electronic room correction) is the only really effective way to deal with that.

Genelec speakers won't do anything that makes them inappropriate for your room, but they are so expensive because they achieve ruler flat response and very smooth directivity. Those attributes are never bad, but they will be hard to fully appreciate when the acoustics of the room are drastically altering the frequency response at the listening position.

Exactly. DSP may help with low frequency room modes which will likely also be an issue, but the other issues mentioned will not be cured by any electronic correction and must be dealt with physically. Controlling your directivity (line arrays) and room treatments will be required to get your best performance.

Try sitting in your chosen location and clap your hands. I bet you will hear a ringing echo.

 

[mkush]

Wow, lots of great replies. What a great forum. Thanks to all.

As I suspected, the room is going to be a big deal, as confirmed by many of you. Unfortunately, there's really nothing I can do with the rear windows. They are huge, cover the whole wall, and really make the room a special place. Nobody in my family would agree to cover them just so the sound can be better, including me. (I know that's heresy. Sorry.)

This all leads me to the conclusion that this is never going to be great sounding so why go over the top with Genelecs? Originally, I had decided to go with KEF LS50 Wireless II plus a KC62 sub. In fact, I bought those and haven't deployed them because Christmas and a trip got in the way. (If I go another way I could easily sell them well, especially since the LS50W2s were on sale.) So many people tout the benefits of the built-in amps on the KEFs that I really came to believe that there was no way I was going to do better with passive speakers and an amp without spending tons of money. So this is what led me to the Genelecs too: built-in, purpose designed amps. Same thing as the KEFs only better. Then that led to the whole room correction obsession.

So there are really two things at play here... the concept of room correction and the concept of active speakers. If I'm willing to forgo the active speakers, I really like the suggestion made earlier in the thread of the Lyngdorf TDAI-1120 plus passive speakers. That device would be extremely convenient for my use, and it has good room correction apparently. I also have a pair of B&W 805-s speakers that I bought a while back that I could pair with that. Then maybe use the KEF KC62 I've already got.

So, to change the direction of the thread, I wonder which would be better:
1. KEF LS50 Wireless II + KC62, giving the benefits of active speakers but not so much room correction or...
2. Lyngdorf TDAI-1120 + B&W 805-s + KEF KC62, giving the benefits of room correction but not active speakers

Given my room, am I going to get more benefit out of the active LS50s, or out of the room correction in the Lyngdorf, which probably can't really fix the biggest issues in my room?

 

[mcdn]

Given my room, am I going to get more benefit out of the active LS50s, or out of the room correction in the Lyngdorf, which probably can't really fix the biggest issues in my room?

The Lyngdorf room correction can and will reduce fundamental room issues. Once set up you can switch as needed between optimising for whole-room evenness of sound or for a chosen listening position. I use it in one of my systems (smaller room than yours but the same "speakers at one end listener at the other" setup), and Amir reviewed it here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...measurements-of-lyngdorf-roomperfect-eq.6799/

What it won't do is let you fiddle with the basic tonality of the speakers, there are "voicing" but no PEQ, so I'm curious as to why you'd pick the B&W 805s, as they aren't very neutral: https://www.hifinews.com/content/bw-805-d4-loudspeaker-lab-report

The Kef R3 or Revel M106 are much better value in the passive standmount category (as are many others, I just picked the ones reviewed here over $1000 each with a pref score over 5.0). Or save lots of money to spend on a second sub and get the Revel M16!

 

[AudioJester]

It seems most of the comments are about achieving a sufficient SPL... that is hardly a challenge, but I see two issues here.

1. Placing the speakers against a wall and sitting against the far wall will likely produce uneven bass in the room. DSP can help here.

2. The reverberant nature of the space will likely make imaging very vague and probably make movie soundtracks much less intelligible. Think of the sound quality of a train station or airport. Obviously these are extremes, but this is what you will be fighting on a smaller scale.

In my projects when faced with this type of problem I use line arrays instead of point source designs. The line array will be less impacted by the reverberant nature of the room and will also have half the rate of SPL fall off over the distance. These are the reasons that all modern PA systems are designed around line arrays.

What line arrays would you recommend for the OP?

 

[mkush]

The Lyngdorf room correction can and will reduce fundamental room issues. Once set up you can switch as needed between optimising for whole-room evenness of sound or for a chosen listening position. I use it in one of my systems (smaller room than yours but the same "speakers at one end listener at the other" setup), and Amir reviewed it here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...measurements-of-lyngdorf-roomperfect-eq.6799/

What it won't do is let you fiddle with the basic tonality of the speakers, there are "voicing" but no PEQ, so I'm curious as to why you'd pick the B&W 805s, as they aren't very neutral: https://www.hifinews.com/content/bw-805-d4-loudspeaker-lab-report

The Kef R3 or Revel M106 are much better value in the passive standmount category (as are many others, I just picked the ones reviewed here over $1000 each with a pref score over 5.0). Or save lots of money to spend on a second sub and get the Revel M16!

I bought the B&Ws before I knew any of this recent info. So I have them. I can can either use them or sell them. The link you provided is for speakers many generations newer than the ones I own (805s, the 's' is part of the name, not plural), but I'm sure mine would fare no better. In the past I've liked the sound of B&Ws. These particular ones I have not tried yet. I could certainly try to sell the B&Ws and get R3s.

So I take it you'd vote for room correction (Lyngdorf+something) over active speakers (LS50W2).

 

[Flaesh]

you'd vote for

I vote for measurements in listening position with any available pair of speakers to start with.