Erin's review for the March Audio Sointuva

[tomtoo]

For me it would be very interesting to send this speakers to the more subjectivist prominent reviewers. The outcome would be so interesting. What they hear, how they do descripe.
Please do this March Audio !

 

[YSC]

A few things.

Color/Finish:
As I said in the review, these come in different flavors. I'm not sure how I feel about the wood finish. I wouldn't own it myself. But I think it's unique. I have a buddy who saw them and loved them. Same for my dad. Wife said they'd be a no-go. So, that's why you have options.



HF Tilt:
Alan and I went back and forth on this a bit. His measurements weren't showing as much of a lift as mine. I think we were about 2dB apart. You can look back in the Sointuva thread where someone posted his data and see his measurements don't show this lift. I verified my measurements with a different mic. Alan did some digging on his end and tracked down the reason(s) for the difference. Based on his findings and mine, he said he is going to update his measurement rig and also tweak the HF. He also noted a couple other things he is considering to perfect the design based on the measurement differences. I've pasted his reply about those potential tweaks below in the spoiler. And I told him I'd be willing to re-test. This is the same as I have done with other manufacturers/designers when unintended differences were discovered between measurement systems (DIYSG HTM-12 and Neumi BS5P, for example).

if that's the case the final product would be amazing, more so with it being a passive! but then looking back at the bank with a great amp to pair with... it's same thing for me as a 8361, great stuff I can't afford

 

[hardisj]

For me it would be very interesting to send this speakers to the more subjectivist prominent reviewers. The outcome would be so interesting. What they hear, how they do descripe.
Please do this!

It's not my place to send this speaker to anyone else. Nevermind how I feel about the subjective "prominent" reviewers.

 

[tomtoo]

It's not my place to send this speaker to anyone else. Nevermind how I feel about the subjective "prominent" reviewers.

I know Erin, but you do that videos what other reviewers hear, how it fits to your impressions, and to the measurements. And this speakers measure very well, imho. And i think you like also what you heared. So it would be very interesting what the others impression is. See it that way, you give me a guide line, lets see how big the deviations are? Would be very cool if March Audio would support this idear.

 

[bigjacko]

The significant frequency response drop outside the axial frequency response, for frequencies above 5kHz, leads to a drop in the sound power frequency response and must therefore be compensated by increasing the axial frequency response.

A straight axis frequency response above 5kHz would therefore have been the wrong decision for the intended design goal (as uniform SP and PIR as possible).

Nice analysis as always, I enjoy your post a lot. I think the flat downwards tilt PIR comes from increasing directivity of the tweeter. The directivity tilt of this speaker increases a bit past 3 kHz, making the high freuqnecy rising will in the end bring the PIR smooth. This is fine if all people care about is PIR. I would say if possible, make the directivity even more smoother, so we don't need that rising response. But design the waveguide must be a pain for this level of performance.

 

[BenB]

A few things.

Color/Finish:
As I said in the review, these come in different flavors. I'm not sure how I feel about the wood finish. I wouldn't own it myself. But I think it's unique. I have a buddy who saw them and loved them. Same for my dad. Wife said they'd be a no-go. So, that's why you have options.



HF Tilt:
Alan and I went back and forth on this a bit. His measurements weren't showing as much of a lift as mine. I think we were about 2dB apart. You can look back in the Sointuva thread where someone posted his data and see his measurements don't show this lift. I verified my measurements with a different mic. Alan did some digging on his end and tracked down the reason(s) for the difference. Based on his findings and mine, he said he is going to update his measurement rig and also tweak the HF. He also noted a couple other things he is considering to perfect the design based on the measurement differences. I've pasted his reply about those potential tweaks below in the spoiler. And I told him I'd be willing to re-test. This is the same as I have done with other manufacturers/designers when unintended differences were discovered between measurement systems (DIYSG HTM-12 and Neumi BS5P, for example).

I honestly hope they don't bring the HF down more than 1 or 2 dB. I think it would be a mistake to do more, because the slight rise in on-axis sound is compensating for the narrowing of the dispersion. I have personally been in the position where a measurement error forced me to make a better design decision than I would have if the measurement had been accurate. From what I've seen, no one who heard the speaker felt the balance was off. It's only that some interpretations of the measurements consider it to be off.
I think on the low end it usually takes a fairly sizeable change to the tuning to have much effect. Still, I could see re-considering the trade off between depth (which will be the easiest dimension to change) and flatness/extension. I don't think increasing the depth a bit will make it less marketable.

 

[hardisj]

I honestly hope they don't bring the HF down more than 1 or 2 dB. I think it would be a mistake to do more, because the slight rise in on-axis sound is compensating for the narrowing of the dispersion. I have personally been in the position where a measurement error forced me to make a better design decision than I would have if the measurement had been accurate. From what I've seen, no one who heard the spaker felt the balance was off. It's only that some interpretations of the measurements consider it to be off.
I think on the low end it usually takes a fairly sizeable change to the tuning to have much effect. Still, I could see re-considering the trade off between depth (which will be the easiest dimension to change) and flatness/extension. I don't think increasing the depth a bit will make it less marketable.

Agreed. Some level of attenuation may be necessary but too much would imbalance the directivity as I noted in my review.

 

[Mnyb]

Good results , implementation of the purify driver seems to be a bit harder then anticipated but March did it .

I don’t have the speaker design chops to say if he nailed it or not . I trust ctrl’s Assessment in this and Erin’s excellent measurements and listening tests ( keep it up it’s appreciated by many of us ).

This interesting speaker goes on my shortlists of speakers to consider when my current setups bites the dust

 

[hardisj]

I know Erin, but you do that videos what other reviewers hear, how it fits to your impressions, and to the measurements.

To clarify, I'm not dismissing subjective reviews. Merely, when you used the word "prominent", I understand you mean "famous" as the definition is such. But that tends to also imply famous for good reasons... and some may take that to mean these people can hear things to the degree that they should be held on a pedestal. To which I would obviously disagree (and very likely that is not what you meant, I'm sure).

Aside from that, as I've been in contact with various companies over the last year I have found a lot of 'dirt' about other reviewers. Nothing I can say publicly, unfortunately. And luckily there are only a few bad apples. The majority of them are good, genuine folks doing what they believe is best for their audience. But some of these dudes are complete douchenozzles based on the stories the manufacturers have told me. That's why I don't really give a rip about *some of* these "prominent" reviewers. /rant

 

[tktran303]

Good on you for copy and pasting your subjective commentary here Erin (post #59)
It does help guide readers- there’s a lot of data to digest.

One thing In this speaker is that the HD3 Is always higher than the HD2 in region the Purifi is working (1.9Khz). This should not be the case. (Reference: your Purezza review and PTT6.5 drive unit/transducer review)

My interpretation is that the source of the mild HD3 distortion being higher than HD2 in this speaker, is the passive components in the LP crossover, more specifically the iron core inductor.

I wonder if this speaker could further be improved by using air-core inductors in the LP filter.

 

[AudioJester]

Thanks for the wonderful review Erin.
Kudos to Allan, a serious quality design.

Why bother with components in the crossovers - seems so archaic?. Ditch it completely and use a minidsp flex, Allan can supply multiple profiles for different use case scenarios and then tune to your own preference and room. 4 channels of quality March amplification and done.
Or use pc based dsp with a motu multichannel dac and add some some Sigberg Inkognito subs as bases for small stands - for a true full range setup.

 

[hardisj]

I tweaked some of my code to alter my FR linearity graphic. In this I am focusing primarily on the linearity of the on-axis response but also now providing LW (at the reasonable request of a viewer). I have also added the horizontal ERDI impact so it will be easier to see what is driving deviations in the ERDI; if it's vertical I believe we shouldn't penalize it and this saves us a step from looking back at the separate Horz/Vertical data. @napilopez has done this a few times and I think it's a good idea.

I also added the linearity and preference scores. Before anyone flips the f*ck out over a 0.1 decimal difference between mine and others' ... save it. If you're picking nits on that level then you're missing the forest for the trees. I'm only adding this to help give a quick guide and I may wind up taking it out again anyway.

The March is the first one to get this treatment so here you go.

 

[Rick Sykora]

As you would expect, March creates another worthy product. Given such lovely finishes are available, really need to lose the nameplate though...

Given how many have griped over the cost of the Purifi woofer, am surprised nobody has mentioned the SB tweeter premium that makes the Purifi seem relatively inexpensive. The good news is that there is some potential for reducing the costs for both. The tweeter dome could be made from something less exotic and get comparable performance. This might help with manufacturing volumes and drive the cost down further. Suspect this is also true for the Purifi, but unless it starts getting used in greater quantities, may be challenging to get to improved economy of scale.

Anyway, thanks Erin for sharing and hope Alan sells a bunch!

 

[mtg90]

HF Tilt:
Alan and I went back and forth on this a bit. His measurements weren't showing as much of a lift as mine. I think we were about 2dB apart. You can look back in the Sointuva thread where someone posted his data and see his measurements don't show this lift. I verified my measurements with a different mic. Alan did some digging on his end and tracked down the reason(s) for the difference. Based on his findings and mine, he said he is going to update his measurement rig and also tweak the HF. He also noted a couple other things he is considering to perfect the design based on the measurement differences. I've pasted his reply about those potential tweaks below in the spoiler. And I told him I'd be willing to re-test. This is the same as I have done with other manufacturers/designers when unintended differences were discovered between measurement systems (DIYSG HTM-12 and Neumi BS5P, for example).

I'm curious if Alan said what he found as the source of the differences at the top end. That was one of the main unexpected response shape differences between your measurements of the HTM-12v2 and my own. I haven't been able to track down a reason for it with my gear. My two CSL calibrated UMIK-1's and my Earthworks M23 all measure within +-0.5dB of each other. I also did a measurement of the amplifier output at the speaker input terminals and saw under 1dB in drop at 20kHz and near flat at 10kHz.

I've noticed a significant amount of the passive speakers you have tested have some kind of lift or rise at the top end.

 

[mhardy6647]

I wouldn't get hung up over the timber finish. It's the measurements that matter.

Could be taken as an argument for blind testing and listening, I suppose.

 

[mhardy6647]

An unnecessary rise in HF is now dismissed as "added air" is it? +4dB @16kHz. Try it on your eq and tell me it's just "added air".

Finally...
It's that thick air Bob Weir wanted on Anthem of the Sun in the late 'sixties.

Finally, music we can buy in 768 khz sampling rates.

The sampling theorem applies to a bandwidth limited signal, which makes perfect sense because our hearing is bandwidth limited, that's incontrovertible. Musical instruments, air, microphones and electronics are also bandwidth limited. I'm sure you realize this too.

www.audiosciencereview.com

(referencing my own snarky post to another thread, but only for context )

I don't know if "distortion measurements are a useless disaster" (as compared with a useful disaster). My first wife, however, was without doubt a useless disaster, lol.

or, perhaps, A Common Disaster.

 

[tktran303]

As you would expect, March creates another worthy product. Given such lovely finishes are available, really need to lose the nameplate though...

Given how many have griped over the cost of the Purifi woofer, am surprised nobody has mentioned the SB tweeter premium that makes the Purifi seem relatively inexpensive. The good news is that there is some potential for reducing the costs for both. The tweeter dome could be made from something less exotic and get comparable performance. This might help with manufacturing volumes and drive the cost down further. Suspect this is also true for the Purifi, but unless it starts getting used in greater quantities, may be challenging to get to improved economy of scale.

Anyway, thanks Erin for sharing and hope Alan sells a bunch!

Hi Rick,

Unfortunately this is wishful thinking that we are all having. The reality is that cost of these drivers is not in the material costs.

It’s in the cost of them doing business; and Purifi or Scan-Speak or SB set their prices as they see fit. When Scan-Speak released their beryllium dome tweeter over a decade (!) ago it was one of their top selling tweeters. There’s little incentive to reduce prices.

If one wants a cheaper beryllium dome the SB29BAC is already available, albeit sans waveguide.

At least with SB wave-guided tweeter and Purifi mid-woofer, despite the high price, the high the performance is there; and the data-sheets have more detail than others. There’s no surprises and I know what I’m getting, as a system designer.

Unlike some other manufacturers where I have to spend hour$ doing my own preliminary studies, and worry about consistency in both supply and product quality.

If one wants improved economies of scale; then you have to move manufacturing offshore.
A manufacturer in USA, Canada, Australia, Denmark, Norway etc cannot compete with those in China or Indonesia or India, or even Taiwan.

This is our global economy; and each countries comparative advantage. There’s just no way I can see it changing.

Yes I can have a HP or Microsoft or Apple computer Made in USA; but how many people will pay double or triple the price for it?

I mean, look what happened after the Tymphany takeover of Vifa and Peerless.
Fast forward 10 years and no they have all but disappeared from retail / distributor channels. Unless you order 500+ units.
Same with Usher (Taiwan)

are we sure we want improved economies of scale?

Finally, it’s hard to face the facts, but in the grand scheme of audio, 6.5” midwoofers are now a niche market.

A 4” driver is now a “subwoofer” and automotive audio and phone audio businesses are even bigger than laptop computers, and the TV audio business, which in sum just eclipses the hifi and home theatre market.

It’s becoming like tonearm cartridges. A top quality niche product will have a high price. Unless there’s market competition there is just no incentive to reduce the price by a great factor.

I can certainly see this is a fine debut by Alan. I hope it is a home run hit, and Alan gets swamped with more orders than he can handle. It’s a good problem to have; rather than sit on a MOQ of 500 units…

 

[Vini darko]

Are these the honey badger of the speaker world?

 

[tktran303]

The Purifi 6.5” is the:

honey badger
bees knees
da bomb
Manila thrilla

Just SOTA

There is no better 6.5” midwoofer for a 2 way.
Since 2019…

 

[abdo123]

Are these the honey badger of the speaker world?

That would be a CBT linearray or a huge horn. Not really a traditional 2-way.