• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

edechamps

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 21, 2018
Messages
910
Likes
3,621
Location
London, United Kingdom
The effects of triggering CAudioLimiter are significant increase of IMD and THD, while still in the digital domain.

You said it yourself: -0.14 dB is sufficient to mitigate the effects of CAudioLimiter. The reason you've put forth for advocating -6 dB is to protect against clipping while mixing multiple sources. I stand by what I said: I don't understand the point of obsessing over audio quality when mixing audio from multiple applications. The use cases don't overlap with each other.
 

Offler

Senior Member
Joined
May 27, 2021
Messages
414
Likes
400
You said it yourself: -0.14 dB is sufficient to mitigate the effects of CAudioLimiter. The reason you've put forth for advocating -6 dB is to protect against clipping while mixing multiple sources. I stand by what I said: I don't understand the point of obsessing over audio quality when mixing audio from multiple applications. The use cases don't overlap with each other.
I have to be clear with one thing. If there are two audio sources, the threshold when CAudioLimiter triggers decreases (you guessed it) by 6dB.

Then there are three case scenarios.
a) Critical listening
- You will probably want to listen just to one stream at a time. Then -0,14dB or Exclusive mode will serve the purpose.

b) Listening + background notifications
- PC plays music or movie content, while there is chance that a notification will pop-up, or call will occur.

c) Playing a game, with SFX but playing different music.
Its quite common...

Mostly there are 1-3 audio sources being played at one time, but not more.
 

TurtlePaul

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
May 19, 2020
Messages
632
Likes
1,030
Location
New York
I agree with the school of thought that when windows plays a chime when I am listening to music, then I don't care if the chime and the music are distortion free - the chime already made the distortion in the music unimportant. I target about -0.6 dB peak gain with EAPO which is after a -6 dB digital preamp. The peak gain is only in about a quarter octave in the mid-bass where I need to equalize up the SBIR null. Don't want to add another -6 dB of preamp because then I am giving up a total of 12 dB of DAC SINAD to prevent vary rare limiting events.
 
Last edited:

bennetng

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 15, 2017
Messages
1,634
Likes
1,693
I agree with the school of thought that when windows plays a chime when I am listening to music, then I don't care if the chime and the music are distortion free - the chime already made the distortion in the music unimportant
In fact most of the Windows notification sounds are in low volume and short duration, in most cases won't add 6dB of peak level. Even if the limiter is engaged, after the mixed sounds stopped the limiter will disengage. If I really need to play mixed sound for a long period I would rather adjust volume in individual software instead of EAPO or something similar, for example many games allow separate volume mixing volume of background music, dialog and sound effect in the option/setting menu. Good media players offer different gain settings and mixing matrix as well. Software using legacy APIs may not be able to pass unclipped/unlimited float data to Windows mixer as well.
windows.png
 

TurtlePaul

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
May 19, 2020
Messages
632
Likes
1,030
Location
New York
Also, worth adding that I would assume that using ReplayGain (-10 dB target or below) in Foobar or Spotify auto normalization (set to normal or quiet) should also avoid most of the CAudioLimiter interactions with music.
 

tjtremor

Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2022
Messages
73
Likes
22
What exactly does hitting CAudioLimiter sound like on the speakers ? I know there's charts here and there about it but does it make a difference in the final output on the speakers ?

Playing full square wave (sounds very loud to me vs songs hitting 100% volume on the mixer)
Had to drop my AVR volume to 30% lol

Using digital on my realtek 1220-vb, no APO pre-amp is the best to me, max 1 in, max 1 out
no CAudioLimiter here, not sure why people here suggest pre-amp or volume reduction

1646506925826.png


Using any small pre-amp value with APO on digital output,
1646507025124.png
 
Last edited:

Offler

Senior Member
Joined
May 27, 2021
Messages
414
Likes
400
What exactly does hitting CAudioLimiter sound like on the speakers ? I know there's charts here and there about it but does it make a difference in the final output on the speakers ?

Playing full square wave (sounds very loud to me vs songs hitting 100% volume on the mixer)
Had to drop my AVR volume to 30% lol

Using digital on my realtek 1220-vb, no APO pre-amp is the best to me, max 1 in, max 1 out
no CAudioLimiter here, not sure why people here suggest pre-amp or volume reduction
CAudio limiter introduces Total Harmonic Distortion of 0,1% (-60dB) and Intermodulation distortion, a value I was unable to quantify with my tools. Both can be heard at louder parts of music where it peaks to more than -0.12dBSPL. Usually beats or drums. It can be heard as "crunchy" sound. Both can be fixed by attenuation via EAPO by -0,14dB or to use exclusive mode where mixer/limiter is bypassed. Also, i made sure that the source wasnt already clipped due poor mastering.

You would not notice any difference on commonly available speakers for PCs, or most Gamer grade equipment.

The other problem is re-sampling (from 44kHz to 48kHz, vice-versa, and their multiplied values). This again introduce some distortion, i wasnt unable to quantify. This was heard as a noise in background.
 

Offler

Senior Member
Joined
May 27, 2021
Messages
414
Likes
400
I find that difficult to believe. Did you do a proper controlled blind test? Can you cite examples of problematic material for us to check?
This source:

Mostly 'Mars, Bringer of War' and 'Mercury, The Winged Messenger'.

DR report:
DR9 0.00 dB -12.20 dB 7:13 ?-01 Mars, the Bringer of War
DR14 -2.52 dB -24.68 dB 3:51 ?-03 Mercury, the Winged Messenger

Mostly loud trumpet parts might got distorted. Also I crossreferenced it with a different recording of Holst:


And then the exact opposite type of source. Anaal Nathrakh, album Eschaton:
DR6 0.00 dB -6.43 dB 4:54 06-The Yellow King

It was a blind test, but i would not consider it properly controlled. I simply set up one player to Default Renderer (48Khz 16bit) and other to WASAPi Exlusive, while EAPO wasnt active, turned off the monitor and randomly switched the sources on remote without knowing and seeing which one is which.

Then i applied corrections (-0,14dB in EAPO, 44KHz 16bit, and adjusted WASAPI Exlusive in Foobar by -0.2dB) and repeated it.

At the time when i wasnt able to tell which source is which only by the sound, then i was certain the setup is OK.
 
Last edited:

tjtremor

Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2022
Messages
73
Likes
22
I find that difficult to believe. Did you do a proper controlled blind test? Can you cite examples of problematic material for us to check?
What he's describing is more likely to be there on the master due to bad mixing or errors during mixing or artistic choice ? or maybe he's using 32bit float output

Some error examples on songs:
Love Me land - Zara Larsson -at 0:29, pop,crackle noises on her voice
Gimme What I Want - Miley Cyrus -at 0:49 , some filter,special effect failing,

Here's crap volume mixing that sounds horrible on my Kilpsch:
Rinzler - Daft Punk, -after 1:37, outside of drums, everything seems to be in overdrive
Derezed, -overdrive sound starting early 0:10
The Strip -Power Glove, 3:17 also in overdrive type of sound

The only time I hear what he's describing (and it's pretty hard to pick-up) are artifacts introduced at the end of sound patterns during playback is when I set output to 32bit and 24bit/192khz ultra hd songs end up up-sampled. But at this point, Caudiolimiter or pre-amp won't help you.
 

tjtremor

Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2022
Messages
73
Likes
22
This source:

Mostly 'Mars, Bringer of War' and 'Mercury, The Winged Messenger'.

DR report:
DR9 0.00 dB -12.20 dB 7:13 ?-01 Mars, the Bringer of War
DR14 -2.52 dB -24.68 dB 3:51 ?-03 Mercury, the Winged Messenger

Mostly loud trumpet parts might got distorted.


And then the exact opposite type of source. Anaal Nathrakh, album Eschaton:
DR6 0.00 dB -6.43 dB 4:54 06-The Yellow King

It was a blind test, but i would not consider it properly controlled. I simply set up one player to Default Renderer (48Khz 16bit) and other to WASAPi Exlusive, while EAPO wasnt active, turned off the monitor and randomly switched the sources on remote without knowing and seeing which one is which.

Then i applied corrections (-0,14dB in EAPO, 44KHz 16bit, and adjusted WASAPI Exlusive in Foobar by -0.2dB) and repeated it.

At the time when i wasnt able to tell which source is which only by the sound, the i was certain the setup is OK.
well...
First of all, the master is garbage for the Mars, Bringer of War for the link you posted

Los Angeles Philharmonic, Zubin Mehta

I already notice clipping, artifacts on the peaks and the volume didn't even go past 60% during those parts

Not sure if it's the same, but this has very good master. None of the clipping,artifacts,distortions.
1646579178709.png

Generally speaking, you don't want Orchestra recording going into 60%+ on the master. The sheer amount of instruments playing and generating crazy harmonics with huge low vs high deltas is sure to generate one garbage output if the sound engineer sucks.
 
Last edited:

Offler

Senior Member
Joined
May 27, 2021
Messages
414
Likes
400
I am afraid there is nothing i can do about quality of the sources. A track with peak at 0.00 dB is very common thing and for the purpose of testing CAudio limiter its a required factor.

If I can tell that Exclusive and shared mode sound different, and that Shared mode is significantly worse, then there are tweaks i can apply and re-check again.
 

tjtremor

Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2022
Messages
73
Likes
22
FYI, you don't have to deal with multiple audio sources screwing levels on the mixer and different pre-amp values if you have AVR with zone2 support or 2nd amp, with another speaker set.

Here's Amazon music exclusive mode on optical output (playing on Klipsch) + windows sounds, youtube on front jack(old speakers) playing at the same time. There's also 3rd source available (line-out) that I don't have anything plugged in.

On the bonus side, you get clear sound if you like playing multiple audio sources at the same time:rolleyes:


1646782952698.png
 
Last edited:

Offler

Senior Member
Joined
May 27, 2021
Messages
414
Likes
400
a transient that is gone under 1ms. if you don't hear the over without a limiter, you wont hear it with it. and when you hear it it will sound better with the limiter
Unfortunately, CAudio limiter triggers, and then has to "wind down". It slowly allows any audio to reach it original peaks over about 1 second.

@tjtremor
yea, thats why i recommended any media player with proper support of WASAPI: Exclusive mode. Good implementation in a media system (such as Kodi) can integrate browser, audio and video player and use internal mixer instead of Windows one. Then use TOSLINK and its a completely different story.

However it cannot work for both media and a game. Thats also why i still recommend configuration for 2 audio sources.

Using two sets of speakers, or at least two inputs on AVR/AMP is also a way to go, but not that common if its just a PC for single person and not home media system.
 
Joined
Mar 9, 2022
Messages
8
Likes
5
A debate has been long raging in the audio community that Windows isn't fit for use in a high resolution audio system. Sceptics counterargued that bits are bits and Windows audio degradations are a figment of an over-active audiophile imagination.

I decided to investigate this as I kept hearing issues with Windows, even after following common practice to (controversially) supposedly make it clean. I found some surprises along the way.

Sorry for the long post but my motivation is to share how to get effectively perfect audio from Windows, to save folks money and headaches, and to help end the endless debates. I'm including supporting objective test evidence in keeping with the spirit of ASR.

Over time, pieces of the "Windows audio sucks" puzzle emerged, but never a complete picture:
  • Benchmark popularized that upsampling causes intersample-overs and clipping distortion within DAC chips. This is fixed by adding some Windows' volume loss
  • Archimago showed that the Windows 10 upsampler (as of 2015) had significant performance issues. Avoiding the upsampler was the solution
  • Mathew Van Eerde showed that Windows has an embedded limiter (CAudioLimiter) that can cause distortion if the signal is near full scale. But I've seen no study on what to do about it. Was the limiter at the input of Windows audio engine, the output, or both? Do all sources needed to have volume reduced or would Windows' global volume work? I decided to find out.
A commonplace sledge hammer detente is to just give up and use ASIO or WASAPI exclusive and bypass Windows' audio engine all together, for bit perfect operation.

I was unhappy with this answer. I want better than bit perfect: a high performance digital filter engine to correct my room modes below Schroeder or to equalize (i.e. correct) my headphones regardless of what I was listening to, with Window's ease of use for all my audio sources. The common recommendation was yet another sledgehammer: buy expensive external hardware filtering boxes (e.g. RME or miniDSP SHD).

This just seemed wrong to me, it felt like giving up. External hardware adds cost and ironically ties you to hardware with frequency resolution lower than Windows can deliver with a more convenient integrated free software solution like Equalizer APO. But how about the performance of EAPO, is it "good enough"? Again, an online search turned up no answers. So I decided to answer that too.

The first step was to find test signals that could be viewed as faultless, with self distortion well below 24 bits. After performing a large study of the free REW and Audacity's tone generators (including trade off with bit rate and the performance of the various types of dither), I found their performance far outstripped even professional external hardware generators costing in the thousands (full disclosure, I used to work in an audio lab). As an example, this REW multi tone test stimulus (24 bit 44.1kHz with dither) was used in my measurements. Distortion components are >170 dB down. Ignore the noise floor, it has FFT gain, but it's "way down there".

View attachment 106545

All the measurements that follow are purely digital using REW through the Windows audio stack with no A/D or D/A conversions, and so any faults are Windows' alone.

Hidden APOs
Playing the multitone file through the Windows audio stack on my family Dell tower XPS8300, with no volume loss, no filters, all system sounds off, all effects disabled etc:

View attachment 106547
Windows uses audio processing objects (APOs) to provide software based digital signal processing for it's audio streams. First Surprise: Some hidden non defeatable APO made a mess of it, even with "all effects off' in Windows. Naughty Windows! My music system and work PCs didn't show this issue, so it may be caused by an APO for the Dell Realtek soundcard. To verify the measurement, I retested with RMAA's spectrum analyzer and the tones at a lower level (to make sure it wasn't intermediate clipping or the CAudioLimiter). Same outcome.

To try and fix this, I then installed (free) Equalizer APO (EAPO). This brilliant software supports a trouble shooting mode that turns off all "original" (stock) system APOs:

View attachment 106550

Result? Effective bit perfection through the Windows audio stack: first distortion component @ -170dB, per the source file:

View attachment 106552

The lesson here is that if your music system is Windows based, to guarantee no funny business from Windows audio, install EAPO even if you don't use filtering, and shut off "original APOs".

CAudioLimiter
Now, lets tackle CAudioLimiter. This is a level limiter built into the Windows audio stack that reduces the digital signal level if it approaches full scale. Benchmark and other sources have illustrated that such high signal level signals are not so uncommon in digital music files.

To test the CAudioLimiter, REW was used to generate a single test tone @ 0 dBFS, 24 bit. The first distortion component of the REW source tone is ~ -160 dB (again ignore noise floor due to FFT gain):

View attachment 106553

Here's CAudioLimiter's nasty fingerprint when this is played back without any loss. See how the limiter knocks the output down to -0.12 dBFS but adds a spray of distortion:

View attachment 106554

Using EAPO to set a pre-amp loss of 0.2 dB (loss with an input APO) completely avoids the CAudioLimiter. I think 150 dB dynamic range to the first distortion component should be good enough for even the fussiest audio junkie:

View attachment 106555

Filter Induced Digital Peaking
Perhaps less well known is that high pass filtering can also cause digital clipping, even if the filter only adds loss. How can this happen? The filter changes phase response which can then change how the different frequencies constructively add in the audio envelope. A good illustration of this is here.

This is a digital problem, not a Windows problem. Thankfully, the same solution used to avoid intersample overs, 4 dB digital preamp loss, should provide enough margin for this in practice as well.

Is EAPO "good enough"?
OK, so adding some loss in an input APO solves our clipping and limiter issues. Next question: what about EAPO, is it's performance really "good enough"? To answer this, I tested EAPO with this complex filter set (highest frequency notch is @ 100Hz)

View attachment 106556

Here's EAPOs digital output with the prior 4 tone REW test stimulus. Faultless, as expected from 32bit float processing used by EAPO:

View attachment 106557

EAPO also gets a knock for using "textbook" filters. These are known to cause "cramping" in high frequencies. In short, cramping is when the PEQ filter "bell" shape gets increasingly asymmetrical as it approaches half the sample rate. So I looked into this as well. In a nice outcome, it turns out that the filters generated by REW using "generic filter" setting are the same filters implemented by EAPO. What you see is what you get when using filters designed by REW, implemented by EAPO.

Upsampling Performance
Another question is whether automatic sample rate switching is needed in Windows, or if a fixed high sample rate can be set, relying on Windows upsampling. Archimago showed that Windows upsampling performed poorly in 2015, but I think the jury is still out. My testing in Dec '20 shows that the Windows upsampler is probably more than good enough. It appears like Windows made improvements since 2015. Playing a 44.1kHz file with upsampling to 96kHz, 24 bits, and EAPO set to -0.2 dB to avoid CAudioLimiter, the highest distortion component was at -134 dB:

View attachment 106575

If you're fussy (like I am), you can change the sample rate when playing back high resolution material, but I think leaving it set at 96kHz should be more than good enough.

Windows "Remote Desktop"
To sweeten the deal, Windows also provides the convenience of free remote desktop from your Android phone. You can sit in front of your speakers and tweak settings, and adjust EQ's etc in real time. This provides the same convenience as "Spotify Connect" but for all music sources whether Tidal or local file playback etc.

What About Analog?
I also want to address how to make this all work for you analog junkies. I own a pile of vinyl and a nice table so had to solve this for myself. I use a low cost external USB A/D tested in loopback showing >100 dB SNR, which blows away the performance of any RIAA preamplifier in front of it. I plumb that into the PC and through EAPO get all the same benefits of room and headphone equalization from vinyl. Getting this right ensures not clipping the A/D. I've created a separate spreadsheet to achieve this, but its beyond the scope here.

Summary Recommendations:
  • Install Equalizer APO and use it to disable original APOs and set EAPO's preamp gain at ~ -4 dB to avoid upsample overs, filtering induced peaks, and the Windows CAudioLimiter
  • Set Windows audio to 24 bits so that it's added dither doesn't compromise dynamic range
  • Set Windows sample rate to the same rate as the native file, or to 96 kHz if you play back high resolution material
  • Turn off Windows system sounds and enhancements
  • Install "remote desktop" for "Spotify Connect"-like added convenience, for all your digital sources
  • Take the money saved and buy more music, better speakers and a few bottles of wine
If set up correctly, Windows can provide clean, faultless audio and (free) high performance equalization which provides enormous pleasure and fidelity improvement that I think any open minded audio fan could get behind. All with the performance and convenience beyond external costly hardware solutions.

I'm hoping you found this helpful.
I thought this was great, thanks. I note that as much as I love EAPO, you should mention its near-necessary brother Peace (just search Peace for APO). Also I _desperately_ wish I could find something as clean/simple offering compression. Side-stepping the silly argument that compression introduces fundamental inaccuracies (of course it does; altering dynamics makes this a tautology), I _really_ like to compress-the-hell out of much of my listening. I've ended up using the Behringer DEQ-2496 (in pure-digital capacity), which can be found for perhaps $150 used. If there were a good APO for this, that would be fantastic (as you note, freeing hardware, and being cost-free).
 
Top Bottom