Yes I have an Apple trackpad right next to me. A mouse was bit harder to use and while I do also have a wireless keyboard I use that or the keyboard on the Logitech Harmony or the accessibility keyboard that use the trackpad to input. I don’t really need to type stuff too much though.
-
WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!
Apple TV 4K vs Windows PC for playback
- Thread starter yelloguy
- Start date
Oh wow. I had only assumed this. But if the volume is lower, that means that there is likely transposition of bits. Same data with a different offset.
If that’s the case, you could have a scenario where one is in the maximum IMD hump region of a DAC and one is at the normal area. While the IMD jump should be inaudible, you could see a recording from the two have a difference in DeltaWave and potentially if you had the recording and then level matched them after the fact, be able to then ABX the difference.
Lots of maybes, but if the Mac and AppleTV have different volumes outputting digitally, it opens up the real possibility of audible differences.
Of course, possibility and probability are different things.
Very much so.
The Dolby offset when bitstreaming Atmos in the Mac mini is extreme. Unfortunately, it does not support Dolby MAT like the Apple TV 4K. Bitstream can be turned OFF and multichannel PCM sans Atmos metadata can be output when playing Dolby Atmos tracks.
For those that care about the numbers, the Apple TV 4K supports Apple Music Lossless but not Hi-Res. The Apple TV 4K will output everything as 24/48. Macs support Hi-Res from Apple Music and can output 24/192 but will not match sample rate and bit depth without a third party app that works for the Apple Music service streams but not rips. Silly, since Tidal app in Mac can do so and Amazon Music did so before recent updates.
SuicideSquid
Addicted to Fun and Learning
- Joined
- Jan 20, 2022
- Messages
- 856
- Likes
- 2,151
I believe you are the one challenging and claiming that it cannot possibly sound different. Can you prove it? Do you even own an AppleTV4k?
I hardly call my opinion a claim. What are you doing? Are we serious here?
The limitations on the sample rate matching on the MacBook is a bit annoying which is why I only use it for music videos (also to prevent burn-in since I just got this 83” OLED). I use a cheap streamer (blusound node 130) for regular 2 channel music. Can’t justify those $3-5000+) streamer like the one my buddy has with a fancy power cord - but he likes it so it’s all good).
Zgrado1970
Member
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2021
- Messages
- 68
- Likes
- 114
You stated: “It’s worse from AppleTV4K. No question - just more convenient.” That is a claim about sound quality. And I don’t think anybody said it “cannot possibly sound different.” It should not sound different, but you (or anyone) will perceive a difference not because there is something different about what is hitting your ears, but because of something after that (faulty auditory memory, some cognitive bias, etc.). This is why people here tell you that the differences disappear when doing proper blind testing. This is a simple thing to understand after spending some time here (presuming you are reading, and not trollposting).
Sorry I didn’t see your message. I don’t have the AppleTv in my main system anymore since I got a new tv and just use the tv apps. I recall setting them all to the highest setting.
I’ll look tonight after work, since it’s in to the basement.
No worries. That is why I thought to tag you. I know default is lossy and there are two different areas to tweak.
Change audio settings on Apple TV
On Apple TV, you can adjust audio settings to reduce loudness, enhance dialogue, send audio to other speakers, and more.
support.apple.com
Make sure you don’t have dynamic range compression
Adjust Music app settings on Apple TV
In Settings, you can control how music is played back on Apple TV.
support.apple.com
If if sounded the same I would have just used ATV4K with the Apple Music app the entire time. It would have been the most convenient.
Maybe it’s my fault - I was just answering a question. This topic doesn’t have an impact on my setup.
Last edited:
Hi - thank you for the suggestion. I think I had these setup correctly.
I’m using an outboard DAC and a 2 channel preamp (Denafrips Athena 12th) now so the bluesound node and MacBook Air is more appropriate in my current setup
By the way, you don't need to do this if both of the following are true:
- your music is all Apple Music (ie not local files.)
- you have an iOS device (iPhone or iPad) to use for control.
(The iTunes Remote app is now badly out of date and doesn't work very well, in my view,)
Instead, for Apple Music, use the Music app on your iOS device as a remote. Open the system-wide control center, tap the top right of the audio controls square, then at the bottom under "Control other AppleTVs or HomePods" you should see your ATV. Tap on that, then go back to Apple Music app.
You're now using the app as a remote.
I do this all the time, without ever turning on a TV (in fact I don't have a TV.)
And to address your other point: I am very satisfied with the sound quality, and believe it to be identical to playback from my Mac connected to the same playback chain.
Another point: if you are doing ANY form of processing on your AVR, it is incredibly likely that your AVR is also downsampling to 48Khz. Not an issue in my view, because I believe based on the extensive evidence presented here and elsewhere and backed up by a lot of foundational theory (math, physics etc) that this is audibly transparent, if done well -- and there are further tests showing the the Apple resampling is indeed done well, though I would need to search for references.
Of course you might be the person who discovers this is not the case -- but you would need to capture the digital output of the ATV vs your other playback devices to start.
Then, when talking configuration: you also need to ensure you are playing back the same mixes. Apple's playback software on both Macs (Apple Music app there) and on the ATV figures out how many output channels are supported and plays back the appropriate stream, which is either a stereo stream (lossy/lossless/"high res") or an Atmos mix, which can then be either converted to a 5.1/7.1 LPCM stream on the ATV or perhaps sent as a bitstream for your AVR to decode.
This is all just scratching the surface.
in other words, you might well be hearing a real difference but not for the reasons you think.
I don’t believe I mentioned hearing a difference myself. I use HDMI-CEC on many of my devices including the Apple TV 4K. I do not want it turning itself and the TV ON if I want to listen to music in other rooms as I have several Airplay 2 equipped receivers. I have used my iPhone as a remote controller for the Apple TV 4K on occasion.
I also like to play with Audirvana and Roon from time to time and use their apps as well. I need to just settle on a permanent solution for DSD files as Apple Music app does not support them. And, of course Apple locks out Apple Music service albums in a library from Audirvana and Roon though purchases and rips are available to them.
The Apple TV 4K does not support hi-res albums from Apple Music and you will never see the hi-res label when using it. It also does not support bitstreaming of Dolby Atmos. It uses DolbyMAT and all Dolby signals are converted to LCPM for output and Dolby Atmos metadata will be retained in the output signal.
The Macs only recently started supporting bitstreaming of Dolby Digital and Dolby Atmos signals in Apple Music. AC-3(Dolby Digital) output was always an option in my Mac mini M1 using the Apple TV app. The Mac never supported DolbyMAT and up until recently could not get Dolby Atmos metadata out over HDMI at all.
The Apple TV 4K cannot output 2ch PCM signals as multichannel PCM like a Mac. This means applying Dolby Surround to a 2ch track moves vocals to the Center Channel unless one uses Center Spread, if equipped in their AVP/AVR, to spread vocals across the fronts.
When setting a Mac to output multichannel 5.1 or more in the Audio MIDI Setup, 2ch signals will be output from just the front speakers even though a multichannel signal is detected at the receiving end. Apply Dolby Surround to it and the vocals will stay in the fronts without needing to apply Center Spread.
For those with Macs located in offices and not connected to a TV through an AVP/AVR, Dolby Vision and Dolby Atmos are supported over Airplay to equipped TVs. Selecting movies from the Apple TV app using the iTunes remote will get those movies to equipped TVs without the need to go through an Apple TV 4K.
There are numerous ways for one to setup their systems and numerous ways Apple and others make setting those systems up both frustrating and fun.
I also like to play with Audirvana and Roon from time to time and use their apps as well. I need to just settle on a permanent solution for DSD files as Apple Music app does not support them. And, of course Apple locks out Apple Music service albums in a library from Audirvana and Roon though purchases and rips are available to them.
The Apple TV 4K does not support hi-res albums from Apple Music and you will never see the hi-res label when using it. It also does not support bitstreaming of Dolby Atmos. It uses DolbyMAT and all Dolby signals are converted to LCPM for output and Dolby Atmos metadata will be retained in the output signal.
The Macs only recently started supporting bitstreaming of Dolby Digital and Dolby Atmos signals in Apple Music. AC-3(Dolby Digital) output was always an option in my Mac mini M1 using the Apple TV app. The Mac never supported DolbyMAT and up until recently could not get Dolby Atmos metadata out over HDMI at all.
The Apple TV 4K cannot output 2ch PCM signals as multichannel PCM like a Mac. This means applying Dolby Surround to a 2ch track moves vocals to the Center Channel unless one uses Center Spread, if equipped in their AVP/AVR, to spread vocals across the fronts.
When setting a Mac to output multichannel 5.1 or more in the Audio MIDI Setup, 2ch signals will be output from just the front speakers even though a multichannel signal is detected at the receiving end. Apply Dolby Surround to it and the vocals will stay in the fronts without needing to apply Center Spread.
For those with Macs located in offices and not connected to a TV through an AVP/AVR, Dolby Vision and Dolby Atmos are supported over Airplay to equipped TVs. Selecting movies from the Apple TV app using the iTunes remote will get those movies to equipped TVs without the need to go through an Apple TV 4K.
There are numerous ways for one to setup their systems and numerous ways Apple and others make setting those systems up both frustrating and fun.
- Thread Starter
- #36
That is how I used Apple TV 4K for music for several months.
This is interesting! I didn't realize that was the case.
I have not been able to configure Apple TV 4K to do that. Whatever settings I choose, it sends decoded LPCM to my AVR.
That is the thing - I don't have a reason. I am wondering if the slight difference I am hearing is real or imagined
The post above reminds us that this is not possible, at least for Atmos. I’ll correct mine. Sorry for misinformation.
I actually value the LPCM output in my case.
Keep testing, and look for the factors that might cause this. Apart from those already mentioned in the thread, like relative levels, which will require better equipment than an iOS app and phone mic to confirm.
But note that if we assume we will hear a difference, we are more likely to. And conversely, if we assume we won’t, we are less likely to. Can’t trust our own brains!
napfkuchen
Addicted to Fun and Learning
Apple devices are not cheap and I can remember myself saying it is just overpriced designer junk... But just because of this feature I bought an iPad as a "remote" for the AppleTV 4K. Having the lights dimmed and tv off is so much better if you really want to enjoy music (for me). And the sound quality is flawless.
- Thread Starter
- #39
Been there. I was expecting to not hear any difference. I didn't.
And then I went back to the PC playback one day. And it seemed to hit harder. Like I said it is placebo level difference but I can't shake it now. I will have a friend A/B them some day. But until then, life is short, I will continue to use the PC for playback.
This is a pretty good setup. iPad makes for a very good remote. If you haven't done it yet, turn it sideways and leave it in desk mode on a table nearby, it shows album art and lyrics etc. Very well thought out "overpriced designer junk" like you said.
Ogoript
Member
Also, be sure the Turn Off Loud Sounds option in the Audio/Video settings of the ATV4K isn't engaged. That setting compresses the dynamic range significantly. The enhance dialog option doesn't impact music, the Turn Off Loud Sounds does impact music.
Similar threads
