Apple TV 4K vs Windows PC for playback

[yelloguy]

I have a Windows PC hooked up to my Maratz AVR using HDMI. Windows is set to 192K/24bits fixed output. Equalizer APO is set to install APO and disable built-in APO. APO also adds a -4dB per-amplification as explained here

I get pretty good sound quality from playing Apple Music lossless running on Windows.

I have tried playing the same tracks using Apple TV 4K connected via HDMI to the same AVR. Am I imagining a slight degradation in sound quality? Looking through the internet I learned that Apple TV 4K resamples everything to 48K sample rate. Is that what could be causing me to hear a very slight degradation? It is like the Windows set up is slightly clearer - this is what I get when feeding FLAC to the Marantz using uPnP/DLNA

 

[jhaider]

Level difference?

 

[kyuu]

Level difference seems the most likely possibility. Unless something really unusual is going on, merely resampling to 48k should not have any audible impact.

 

[Lsc]

It’s worse from AppleTV4K. No question - just more convenient.

 

[GXAlan]

Have you gone into the AppleTV settings, and then to the Apple Music app settings to make sure it’s configured for maximum audio quality?

Adjust Music app settings on Apple TV

In Settings, you can control how music is played back on Apple TV.

support.apple.com

 

[SuicideSquid]

It’s worse from AppleTV4K. No question - just more convenient.

I have a question. How do you know this?

 

[Lsc]

I have a question. How do you know this?

It sounds worse - it’s a pretty clear difference which is why I use my MacBook Air or a streamer for music listening vs ATV4K.

Does it sound the same to you?

 

[yelloguy]

I have an iPhone app that allows me to measure the average SPL level I'm listening at. I tend to stay around 75dB from both sources.

As to the difference - it is very slight and easy to miss. In fact I convinced myself that it was all in my head and listened to ATV4K for many weeks. I recently had to connect my PC again to the AVR for some measurements and as soon as I played the music, it seemed a touch more... clear. It is like the notes from the instruments have inflections that are clearer. Notes themselves are present in both situations. Like I said, it might be in my head. But I have a more enjoyable experience from the PC and it reminds me of playing a CD or a FLAC file directly to the AVR. That to me has been the best sound in my set up so far.

ATV4K comes close and it will be hard to pick out in a blind test. As an analogy, if you took a picture of sand, and there was more texture in one picture vs slightly less texture in the other. Minor difference.

I have adjusted the ATV sounds settings but I will check again later today.

 

[Lsc]

I have an iPhone app that allows me to measure the average SPL level I'm listening at. I tend to stay around 75dB from both sources.

As to the difference - it is very slight and easy to miss. In fact I convinced myself that it was all in my head and listened to ATV4K for many weeks. I recently had to connect my PC again to the AVR for some measurements and as soon as I played the music, it seemed a touch more... clear. It is like the notes from the instruments have inflections that are clearer. Notes themselves are present in both situations. Like I said, it might be in my head. But I have a more enjoyable experience from the PC and it reminds me of playing a CD or a FLAC file directly to the AVR. That to me has been the best sound in my set up so far.

ATV4K comes close and it will be hard to pick out in a blind test. As an analogy, if you took a picture of sand, and there was more texture in one picture vs slightly less texture in the other. Minor difference.

I have adjusted the ATV sounds settings but I will check again later today.

I’m all for having as simple of a system as possible. If the next generation ATV4K sounds as good as a standalone streamer / pc, I’ll be very happy and will finally upgrade to the latest version.

Until then I’ll continue to inconvenience myself with having to change sources to listen to music.

Of course this means that Apple needs to add a USB or some sort of digital out so the sound can go through my outboard DAC -> preamp. This would be great.

 

[yelloguy]

having to change sources to listen to music

Question for you - how do you play music on your Windows Apple Music? Do you use remote desktop like me? Or have you found a better way?

 

[antcollinet]

OK Guys - we are at ASR here.

If you are not comparing accurately level matched (with a meter) and blind, then by far the most likely reason you are hearing a difference is one of those things. (assuming there are not DSP differences caused by the settings in either the ATV or the PC)

It is certainly not being caused by resampling to 48K

 

[Lsc]

Question for you - how do you play music on your Windows Apple Music? Do you use remote desktop like me? Or have you found a better way?

Until yesterday via HDMI to my pre pro (input 1). The ATV4K is on input2 to my pre pro.

I just bought a DAC with a 2 channel preamps so now I’m connected via usb to my DAC. Hence my comment above.

 

[SuicideSquid]

It sounds worse - it’s a pretty clear difference which is why I use my MacBook Air or a streamer for music listening vs ATV4K.

Does it sound the same to you?

Did you level-match the outputs? Do a controlled, blinded test? Or did you just switch back and forth and say "this one sounds better"?

 

[Lsc]

Did you level-match the outputs? Do a controlled, blinded test? Or did you just switch back and forth and say "this one sounds better"?

Did you level match the outputs? Do a controlled test? Or did you just switch back and forth and say “they sound the same”?

If you or anyone else think that they sound the same, I’d like to see some evidence please, thanks.

 

[antcollinet]

Did you level match the outputs? Do a controlled test? Or did you just switch back and forth and say “they sound the same”?

If you or anyone else think that they sound the same, I’d like to see some evidence please, thanks.

Assuming you've not set one of them to process the data in some way (DSP, eq or tone settings etc) then Both are delivering the same digital data to the same DAC, except for possible resampling. Resampling to 48K doesn't make audible changes. Measurement after measurement here of devices with digital outputs show that they deliver perfect unadulterated audio.

By definition, they can't sound different as long as the audio is level matched in the analogue domain.

You are the one making extraordinary claims - it is up to you to bring the evidence. And in fact only you can provide proof in the form of passing a properly controlled blind test.

 

[yelloguy]

Until yesterday via HDMI to my pre pro (input 1). The ATV4K is on input2 to my pre pro.

I just bought a DAC with a 2 channel preamps so now I’m connected via usb to my DAC. Hence my comment above.

What I meant was, how do you pick songs and press play/pause? Do you have keyboard and mouse access to the PC?

 

[Tre2023]

What I meant was, how do you pick songs and press play/pause? Do you have keyboard and mouse access to the PC?

I prefer Apple Music playback from my Mac mini M1 to the Apple TV 4K for various reasons. I leave output setting at 8CH 24/192 and use a USB-C to HDMI adapter for connection to my receiver. Using the adapter equipped with special firmware connected to the Thunderbolt port allows for video output of 4K HDR10 RGB 10 Bit @120Hz. The HDMI port is limited to 60Hz.

Anyway, Dolby Atmos bitstream is now supported in the macOS Apple Music and Apple TV apps over HDMI. So, I can enjoy Dolby Atmos music selections now without having to fire up the TV and Apple TV 4K. I usually sit on the couch in front of the TV with keyboard and mouse but can also use the iTunes Remote app in my iOS devices to control music playback when the TV is OFF. My receiver is also connected to my network and can be controlled using its controller app.

The iTunes Remote app is available in Android devices as well as iOS devices. It has been around for some time and is still supported, for now. Home sharing will need to be enabled for it to work with a given music library. With multiple Airplay 2 equipped devices in a network, music from a single library can be sent to one or all of the devices using the iTunes Remote app and Airplay 2 does not have a Zone 2 restriction.

 

[Shorty]

If you or anyone else think that they sound the same, I’d like to see some evidence please, thanks.

So you’ve been active on ASR for almost five years.
You have posted over 400 messages.
And still you think you can get away with an answer like that…

 

[GXAlan]

@Lsc
Did you confirm that your appleTV wasn’t accidentally stuck in lossy mode instead of lossless?

The only way to figure this out is measuring it. I keep telling other audiophiles like me (who do hear differences between DACs and electronics) that measurement is a good way to understand what is going on.

You can find plenty of examples where things SHOULD sound identical and they don’t, and I can measure a potential reason for the difference.

E1DA Cosmos ADC is the cheapest hobby toy to explore these nuances.

Edit: There was a post on AVSForum where there is occasionally a glitch where the appleTV sends the info to the wrong speaker when encoding the Atmos MAT signal which isn’t a problem if you use a different streamer and send the bitstream (indicating that it isn’t an error in the streaming service’s Atmos stream). Yes, on paper, there should be zero difference with having the receiver decode Atmos versus having the AppleTV decode Atmos to PCM with MAT for the height channels. In reality there can be easily measured differences.

So quite simple to measure the electrical output of your DAC with the E1DA Cosmos ADC and compare.

Another example since people have talked about level matching is if the two approaches send slightly different levels somehow (think Dialog normalization) and and as a result, you somehow are in the IMD hump of an ESS DAC with on source versus the other. Even though the results might be level matched to volume in the analog stage and identically digitally with just transposed digital values, if you measured the two, you might find the difference in PCM level, though simple and linear, is somehow engaging in the exact weak point of the system.

 

[Madlop26]

I do prefer apple TV
I use PC , mac Mini M2 as well, but I can not get Atmos from PC from apple music, and the recent Atmos implementation in Mac is quite glitchy, takes time to reset from stereo to Atmos, and vicerversa, but the dealbreaker is Volume balance between stereo and Atmos, in the Mac Atmos always has a lower volume, in the Apple TV balance is perfect.
Any difference in sound quality? nope, why they would?