End Game Speakers - The Quest Continues

[srrxr71]

To devil's advocate my own previous comment, I definitely understand not wanting to take away from the speaker budget to hang a bunch of ugly rectangles all over your walls. We're suggesting things as if the budget was $200K... $30K almost sounds like an unlimited amount of money when it comes to speakers, but when it comes to building things, it's peanuts... I'm currently on the hook to spend more to install a bathtub.

Yes there is no limit when you start doing architectural things.

I haven’t seen or rather don’t remember the room pictures. From what I remember it’s a long rectangular room similar to my own. Side walls are very far.

I would throw maybe a few 244 panels on the ceiling and maybe some on the wall behind me. Maybe just a basic $1k amount of acoustic panels. But I guess that wouldn’t be part of this discussion as it can be added later to the budget.

 

[MattHooper]

Yay, another speaker journey thread! Great to see, @MKR !

I'm not hot 'n bothered over active speakers so I pretty much exhausted any of my retrogressive, cave-man audiophile recos in the former thread. But I'll enjoy reading your impressions of whatever you hear.

Looking forward to the Florida show report!

 

[poopy]

Above your budget unfortunately : https://www.me-geithain.de/en/me-800k.html

 

[gnarly]

My thoughts on rooms vs speakers are....

Somehow our ears/brain have a way of taking a room in and making whatever it is sound, OK/good/great,

I've never heard a situation where a better speaker didn't sound better in 'whatever' room.
Other than omnis or dipoles or highly room-reflective designs.

I believe in taking the best speakers I have outdoors, and then comparing that sound to indoors, to decide how to address the room.
(Again other than omnis or dipoles or other highly room-reflective speaker designs)

Bottom line imo, a good speaker whips a good room....unless the room really sucks

 

[sigbergaudio]

Not sure I agree, to hear extremely expensive speakers sound horrible is quite normal at hifi shows (where the rooms typically aren't great).

When we present at shows, half of what we bring is acoustic remedies (we literally bring a large van where half of the space is essentially taken up by acoustic panels and/or insulation, carpets..) It makes a world of difference.

 

[Mr. Widget]

I would throw maybe a few 244 panels on the ceiling and maybe some on the wall behind me.

Oooh that doesn't sound like an aesthetic that will fly.

If one doesn't want wood slats or fabric walls, there are acoustic fabrics that can be installed on stretched panels that look like level five plasterwork. If you can give up 6"to 12", you can fur out the wall with stretched fabric and conceal all manner of diffusors and absorbers to really dial in a room with zero aesthetic impact.

 

[Bugal1998]

Nope, my money better spent on speakers that adapt to the room

Having experienced both room types with a speaker that adapts to the room, I can say from experience that you may not be making a safe assumption.

If the room will be a normally furnished room, sure, you may not need any special treatment, but if it's closer to a dedicated theater/listening room you may be making an audible miscalculation.

Knowing what I know now, there's about a 0% chance I would build a dedicated room without an acoustician on the team.

My 2 cents, FWIW, YMMV, etc., etc...

 

[srrxr71]

Oooh that doesn't sound like an aesthetic that will fly.

If one doesn't want wood slats or fabric walls, there are acoustic fabrics that can be installed on stretched panels that look like level five plasterwork. If you can give up 6"to 12", you can fur out the wall with stretched fabric and conceal all manner of diffusors and absorbers to really dial in a room with zero aesthetic impact.

Do you have any pics?

Edit: found this: https://fabric-wall.com/

 

[Mr. Widget]

Do you have any pics?

Edit: found this: https://fabric-wall.com/

No, but picture a smooth finished wall or ceiling, until you press against it, you can't tell it isn't a smooth matte wall. If you want to hang art, you can place blocking in appropriate locations. Typically we have it done on ceilings and perhaps one or two walls.

Your link is a more typical fabric wall that looks like fabric or wall paper, but we often specify a smoother tight weave fabric that doesn't look at all like fabric.

 

[gnarly]

Not sure I agree, to hear extremely expensive speakers sound horrible is quite normal at hifi shows (where the rooms typically aren't great).

Must say, I have to question how many of those extremely expensive speakers are in fact good speakers,
In fact, i think very high price may be inversely correlated with good speaker design. Just sayin...

 

[Bugal1998]

Not sure I agree, to hear extremely expensive speakers sound horrible is quite normal at hifi shows (where the rooms typically aren't great).

Same for dealer show rooms.

I've heard the same objectively high performing speakers in different rooms go from "wow" to "meh", and vice versa.

From a tonality perspective an objectively higher performing speaker still sounds better in a good room or bad room than a lower performing speaker in the same spaces. Outside the modal frequencies, tonality doesn't seem to change much from room to room unless something is substantially off (way too much or way too little HF absorption, etc.).

However, for a given speaker, apparent source width, spaciousness, and envelopment are highly dependant on the room. I've become a proponent of the minimum amount of absorption to keep early reflections in check, and find that diffusion adds a pleasing quality to the listening experience.

Great speaker > poor speaker
Great speaker in typical room > poor speaker in great room
Great speaker in a great room > all

 

[GXAlan]

These may not fit your decor, but you sort of owe it to yourself to try to find a show where you can listen to these or even book a demo at the factory somehow. Seeing how much they gush over the setup and knowing that @Mr. Widget has owned and heard a lot of stuff and basically runs a full custom TAD setup in one room and Meyer Sound in the other, it’s probably something to consider.

 

[GNK]

IMHO There's no such thing as an END-GAME Speaker.
Every speaker is just a transducer that converts electric signal to sound waves.

Up to a certain level, there is a change in the fidelity of this conversion, but beyond that, you're paying thousands of dollars for very small differences that are hard to distinguish.
And those minor differences are often exaggerated by marketing to fool people into thinking they're making a reasonable purchase.

Therefore, I find these years-long boring threads discussing END-GAME speakers worthless.
In fact, I get the impression that you don't actually want to pick a speaker to buy, but just want to have fun continuing the thread.

If you really want to buy such a speaker, I suggest you buy whatever you like as soon as possible, and then spend your time listening to music, not picking speakers.

 

[YSC]

IMHO There's no such thing as an END-GAME Speaker.
Every speaker is just a transducer that converts electric signal to sound waves.

Up to a certain level, there is a change in the fidelity of this conversion, but beyond that, you're paying thousands of dollars for very small differences that are hard to distinguish.
And those minor differences are often exaggerated by marketing to fool people into thinking they're making a reasonable purchase.

Therefore, I find these years-long boring threads discussing END-GAME speakers worthless.
In fact, I get the impression that you don't actually want to pick a speaker to buy, you just want to have fun continuing the thread.

If you really want to buy such a speaker, I suggest you buy whatever you like as soon as possible, and then spend your time listening to music, not picking speakers.

I believe the End game speaker is when you finally get one satisifying all your need in luxury (the degree you aimed for), look, and acceptable sound fedility, in objective land a pair of Kali monitors in a normal room would be almost as good sound wise as the uber expensive ones, but since none of us can escape from sighted exterior and brand bias, just spend whatever cost you enough money that you would start to feel your consideration on, and then get the one with good enough objective performance and the brand/look or even gimmick you like is the end game. Just like there are so many Honda fans the end game is really a red badge with a Type R logo sticked to the rear.

 

[boxerfan88]

I like this sort of thread.

With all the twist & turns, once in a while surprise, gives the “reality TV” vibes to a speaker purchase journey.

Quite fun to follow…

 

[prestigetone]

IMHO There's no such thing as an END-GAME Speaker.
Every speaker is just a transducer that converts electric signal to sound waves.

Up to a certain level, there is a change in the fidelity of this conversion, but beyond that, you're paying thousands of dollars for very small differences that are hard to distinguish.
And those minor differences are often exaggerated by marketing to fool people into thinking they're making a reasonable purchase.

Therefore, I find these years-long boring threads discussing END-GAME speakers worthless.
In fact, I get the impression that you don't actually want to pick a speaker to buy, you just want to have fun continuing the thread.

If you really want to buy such a speaker, I suggest you buy whatever you like as soon as possible, and then spend your time listening to music, not picking speakers.

Exactly

 

[OldHvyMec]

When we present at shows, half of what we bring is acoustic remedies (we literally bring a large van where half of the space is essentially taken up by acoustic panels and/or insulation, carpets..) It makes a world of difference.

I've never been to a great sounding room that wasn't treated. Shows more than any other place. The last days vs the first days are my favorite to compare.
It tells me everything if that room doesn't get better day by day. No two rooms are the same (in most cases) and knowing how the product will react in a
25 X 50 X 20(height) room vs 16 X 20 X 8 foot.

Several times I've walked in only to walk out. If I see no effort to treat a room, there's no need to look unless it's just a. look see, at a, listen to me, show.

"Have room will travel," usually gets the better reviews constantly vs hit and miss because of whatever the reason. Unfortunately I've seen a lot of speakers
and gear go back because of room treatment, placement and not doing anything about it, except complain about boom or boiling their ears.

Not a fan of Ricochet Rooms at all. It always amazed me how pulling the bleachers out and people setting down at a basketball game taimed 80%
of the horrible echo compared to just a few hours before in an empty gymnasium.

Regards

 

[kemmler3D]

Bottom line imo, a good speaker whips a good room....unless the room really sucks

Maybe you are right, but a lot of rooms... a LOT... totally suck.

Not sure I agree, to hear extremely expensive speakers sound horrible is quite normal at hifi shows (where the rooms typically aren't great).

+1 to this. A room in a hotel or conference center picked at random usually sounds like ass. You really notice when it actually sounds good. I was recently at a hotel in a big conference room and the sound guy had carefully arranged some L'Acoustic PAs in a wide formation, it sounded pretty decent.

Then there was that one Magnepan room.

Most others I've been in were crap.

Even in my own house... My outdoor JBL Control X speakers (snagged for $90 on eBay) don't embarrass themselves compared to my LS60s in a very dire acoustic situation indoors. I guess the good news is it's not too difficult to bring the LS60s outside once in a while...

You do acclimate to whatever room you tend to listen in... the brain is an amazing thing... but there are limits to these things. The RT60 is going to be what it is, brain or no.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Must say, I have to question how many of those extremely expensive speakers are in fact good speakers,
In fact, i think very high price may be inversely correlated with good speaker design. Just sayin...

Don't necessarily disagree, but it's not the main takeaway. Having heard my own speakers in a lot of different rooms, my experience is that:

The same speakers in two different rooms can sound more different than two different speakers in the same room.

 

[sigbergaudio]

@MKR Bottom line; While I understand you don't want to do a lot (for various reasons), I think it would be a big mistake to not do as much as possible with the acoustics in the room within whatever constraints you have. It will elevate your system from good to great regardless of which speakers and type of speakers you end up with.

I have a dedicated listening room with a decay of 200-250ms that is pretty even across the frequency range. And I have friends who also have our speakers. Their typical reaction to listening in that space is "I wish my system sounded this good", despite having the exact same speakers at home.