Their "Features" list is - probably intentionally - ambiguous in this regard: All 16 channels of 24 bit / 192k processed audio, plus Zone 2 (18 channels total) can be routed to any Dante enabled receiving device over a standard network. The specs for the (Trinnov derived) SDP-75 lack any information regarding the sampling rate of the digital outputs. I know of one device that has HDCP/HDMI in and at least promises up to 24bit/192kHz out: the Smyth Realiser A16, but that's only 2 channel, and probably still a few years out.
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Emotiva RMC-1 AV Processor Review
- Thread starter amirm
- Start date
OP
- Thread Starter
- #163
He was seeing more jitter on AES than USB from what I recall. There was also an SMSL DAC that was under powered with USB.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #164
Responding to some other bits from Emotiva forum:
There are no industry "standards" on how you measure a DAC (inside an AV processor or otherwise). There are however some common tests like SINAD/THD+N, Dynamic Range, etc. which I have run on hundreds of products by now.
As for "external variables," I have run the same tests on so many products. Vast number of manufacturers have seen them and I don't see riots in streets saying they are not "standards." Lonnie is a member here and had seen my XMC-1 tests so none of it should be a surprise to him. Or to anyone else who is in the industry.
These tests are dead simple anyway. You connect the AES cable to RMC-1. Feed it 24 bit 1 kHz. Analyze the output with > $25,000 word-class, industry standard analyzer, the Audio Precision APx555. Both Direct and Reference Stereo were tested. What on earth in this setup explains this?
What "external" conditions caused a process on its own to produce the spikes around 250 and 500 Hz? Those were not in the signal itself.
There are no industry "standards" on how you measure a DAC (inside an AV processor or otherwise). There are however some common tests like SINAD/THD+N, Dynamic Range, etc. which I have run on hundreds of products by now.
As for "external variables," I have run the same tests on so many products. Vast number of manufacturers have seen them and I don't see riots in streets saying they are not "standards." Lonnie is a member here and had seen my XMC-1 tests so none of it should be a surprise to him. Or to anyone else who is in the industry.
These tests are dead simple anyway. You connect the AES cable to RMC-1. Feed it 24 bit 1 kHz. Analyze the output with > $25,000 word-class, industry standard analyzer, the Audio Precision APx555. Both Direct and Reference Stereo were tested. What on earth in this setup explains this?
What "external" conditions caused a process on its own to produce the spikes around 250 and 500 Hz? Those were not in the signal itself.
The reaction by Emotiva pushes me to send Amir my A5175 for testing/dumpster-ing, and buy an Outlaw 5000 to replace it.
Can't say I expected high end AVRs and processors to do well given what we know up to this point, but this is comical.
Can't say I expected high end AVRs and processors to do well given what we know up to this point, but this is comical.
Filters were solved....what...30 years ago or something and they still mess it up. How? This is sheer incompetence.
Is that actually AUDIBLE above? For that matter, are ANY of the things Amirm makes mountains out of actually audible with the intended signals and output levels meant for this device or the AV7500 Marantz review I just read, etc.? I sure as heck can't hear 24kHz, for example nor can my speakers reproduce 24kHz. So why would I CARE from a consumer standpoint?
I understand he wants to see measurable perfection, but let's face it, the actual consumer just wants to know how it SOUNDS (sound being a function of the human brain, not a measurement on an oscilloscope.) "I can't recommend this" means NOTHING to me as a consumer when it's based purely on INAUDIBLE measurements. I mean seriously, I couldn't give a CRAP about something that isn't going to be audible as what I can't hear won't bother me. It's great to make the measurements and know what you're dealing with, but most of that stuff isn't going to matter to the consumer if they cannot hear it and yet a typical consumer won't even know how to read most of those measurements, but they WILL read the conclusion that makes it sound like it's going to be awful sounding. Time is money and over-engineering something beyond what is necessary is a waste of money in this day and age where rising costs are a real problem and Emotiva has had a LOT of problems lately. Products cost enough as it is, but purposely making them higher to satisfy someone's need to measure is another matter.
I read high-end rags like Stereophile for years that posted all kinds of measurements while they praised things like green marker pens for helping CD jitter (HOW?!??!), CD transport "mats" that only overloaded the servo motors and my personal favorite, Shakti stones that helped the room's "chi". Talk about crossing science with snake oil....
But when I come to a site that HATES the Marantz AV7500 because the DAC doesn't "measure up" well.... All I ask is, "IS IT AUDIBLE?" If not, WHO GIVES A BLANK! Listening by measurements instead of your ears when I can't hear above 16kHz anymore and the idea I'd need more than 16-bits of resolution in a typical home theater room that's probably not going to play 105dB peaks with a typical "near field" soundtrack (it's too darn loud in critical frequencies; some of the theatrical mixes like Raiders of the Lost Ark from Paramount you can EASILY take to reference without killing your ears by comparison.
For as "crap" as my Marantz 7012 *MUST* be (i.e. it's further down the ladder than the AV7500/8500), it sounds FANTASTIC. Amirm wouldn't touch it with a 20-foot pole except to scream about how AWFUL it measures when it sounds divine (actually it "sounds" like nothing; it just delivers the signals sent to it and amplifies some of them for me). That alone makes any review of his carrying huge grains of salt in the conclusions in my mind as it's not measuring what MATTERS, but some engineering "ideal" that doesn't! That's all I have to say on this site now or ever as it misses the entire point of home theater equipment which is to watch a movie in Dolby Atmos or DTS:X or Auro-3D. If my 7012 is producing mountains of distortion, I sure as hell cannot hear it!
Ignorance is BLISS apparently. I refuse to base my purchases on things I cannot hear. There are FAR too many other real world variables that do matter (reliability being high on the list) to concentrate on the ones that don't. 92dB SINAD and 0.0025% THD+N? OMG! How awful!
Here's a clue about the real reasons people are interested in this device. People want this AVR for the FEATURES ( >11 channel Atmos) not necessarily the DAC jitter specs.... Until recently just getting >13 channels meant a $30K piece of equipment, so excuse me, but $5K isn't quite as crazy as it's made out to be. Lyngdorf costs more than twice as much the last time I looked and it only fared slightly better in its rating!
(Now the software bugs in this Emotiva unit are another matter entirely). I'd put my money on Monoprice at this stage of watching, but I'm waiting for an 18-channel device to handle my full layout without matrixed or extracted extra channels (preferably with DTS:X Pro that makes use of most of those channels unlike Disney locked layout soundtracks).
Dimitri
Senior Member
Designing by looking up formulas in wikipedia?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/ba/ChebyshevII_response.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/ba/ChebyshevII_response.png
As noted by Marconi in post #26, Emotiva chose to wire their amps with XLR pin 3 as +. It’s not operator error as all us Emotiva fanboys know. Regardless very disappointing performance by the RMC.
Russ
Responding to some other bits from Emotiva forum:
View attachment 51709
There are no industry "standards" on how you measure a DAC (inside an AV processor or otherwise). There are however some common tests like SINAD/THD+N, Dynamic Range, etc. which I have run on hundreds of products by now.
As for "external variables," I have run the same tests on so many products. Vast number of manufacturers have seen them and I don't see riots in streets saying they are not "standards." Lonnie is a member here and had seen my XMC-1 tests so none of it should be a surprise to him. Or to anyone else who is in the industry.
These tests are dead simple anyway. You connect the AES cable to RMC-1. Feed it 24 bit 1 kHz. Analyze the output with > $25,000 word-class, industry standard analyzer, the Audio Precision APx555. Both Direct and Reference Stereo were tested. What on earth in this setup explains this?
What "external" conditions caused a process on its own to produce the spikes around 250 and 500 Hz? Those were not in the signal itself.
do you still have the unit?
if so please do my steps on post #79 and see if that solves the problems.
If it is still there after that, then Emotiva is fully to blame. But my post will also fix the HDMI issue. Unless it is on your equipment side thats making it not work. (Unlikely)
On the Emotiva site:
This has been an active day. I predict tomorrow will be on as well.
- Rich
This has been an active day. I predict tomorrow will be on as well.
- Rich
99% + of the HT user base is a one box ONLY answer and at that typically needs help setting it up. Any more then that is a non starter IMO.
Russ
Promise?
Then, don't.
Welcome to the forum. Quite a first post
First, for some context... I sent in the NAD T758 V3. Here is a link. This is why it is important to measure, to investigate how a particular product performs. It is about fidelity. So the NAD misses the mark by quite a bit. Without reviews like this, we would not know that and would be stuck with "it sounds great".
You mention 16 bits of resolution... but this $5k product doesn't even give you that.... it is a processor with no amps included. For $5k it should do better. It is OK that you don't care as well. But $5k is a pretty nice sum of money and it should at a minimum outperform the XMC-1. Maybe the testing from Emotiva will shed some light on this, but as it is, this is a pretty disappointing result. How far we have come from the days of manufacturers providing specs that you could trust. We now have $3-$5k products with absolutely no specs that have been out for a long time. As consumers, this just shouldn't be acceptable.
Also, I asked Emotiva many times to provide specs. They informed me they would do it soon. That was in September. As consumers, we need to have some assurance as to engineering quality. Emotiva, evidently does not think this is important, or they would have provided measured specs (like they did with the XMC-1 and their previous amps). This seems to be a new direction for Emotiva where published measurements are not provided and instead rely on in "sounds good" and "can't compare to a stand alone DAC".
After wanting an XMC2 I decided on a Denon X8500 and have been pleased with it despite its probably ok to good performance.
BTW, I would not consider the Marantz 7012 "crap" at all.
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/marantz-sr7011-av-receiver-review-test-bench
The HDMI issue puzzles me. I have no problem with my Brix Windows 10 system.
Do you have another computer to try?
Is it worth trying the optical or USB inputs? For USB, you there is a setting to enable native UAC2 support.
- Rich
I am surprised that these measurements were not available in Emotiva’s drawer for immediate presentation.
I'm sure they are.. which begs the question, why not publish specs from the beginning. My opinion is it is easier to make it a channels/features/audiophile language game than simply post measurements/bench test results.
Better do both.
Today’s surprise though, was not that the specs weren’t published, we already knew that, but that they weren’t immediately available to present and possibly contradict @amirm numbers.
Don’t they own a AP device?
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