Suggestions for Denon AVP-A1HD replacement please!

[Baldrick]

My second lamp-based projector has just died (and from the flashing LEDs it looks like it's not just the bulb) so I'm thinking of upgrading to a 4K laser projector ... hopefully that'll last more than the ~5 years I've got out of my current pj.

The problem is that my processor doesn't support 4K switching and I wouldn't mind actually using the 4K capability of my Sky-Q and Apple TV 4K sources. I'm not *sure* I'll be able to tell the difference (IIRC my screen is something like 90" wide) so I'll likely spend some time in a shop first but up to now I've been happy with 1080p. But it still spurred me into thinking of upgrading my processor (the AVP-A1HD mentioned in the title).

FWIW I'm very happy with its performance, I'm using a 5ch McIntosh power amp - can't remember exactly which model but it's one of their less expensive offerings - into B&W 802 diamond L,C,R speakers, SVS SB16-Ultra sub and my old *much* cheaper, much older KEF Q-70 rears. I wouldn't mind playing with the newer Dolby whatevers but the driver is 4K. I've got a few options for music sources but generally I use my Eversolo DMP-A1 because it's trivially easy and sounds great (comparable to my NuVista CD player).

From an evening's googling I've come away thinking "nope". Emotiva RMC-1 did not score well here. Anthem A70 didn't seem impressive. Indeed I can't see any processors that've done well. I also can't find many processors with balanced inputs (I connect the Eversolo with balanced cables) aside from the McIntosh MX123 ... and that hasn't been reviewed here AFAICS. Whilst I'm not averse to trusting my ears with a ~£10k purchase it'd be nice to have a more science-based review for the feelz.

So ... should I forego 4K switching & new audio formats until the Denon finally dies? (An HDMI board died a few years ago which cost me a small fortune to get fixed but removing the glass shelf above I hope has reduced the likelihood of overheating ... at least the HDMI inputs currently seem to be behaving. Touch wood.)

Or is there something else I should look at?

(BTW have I missed a page somewhere on this site where "recommended" equipment is listed? That would be great for this sort of question!)

 

[-Matt-]

Marantz AV10?

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/marantz-av10-av-processor-review.50041/

 

[welwynnick]

The other obvious AVP to consider is the Anthem AVM90.

Anthem AVM90 AV Processor Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Anthem AVM90 home theater 15.4 channel Audio/Video Processor. It was sent to me by the company and is on sale for US $6375. As you see, the AVM90 sports a gorgeous, high contrast and large display. It is a joy to navigate this feature as it is...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Did you see the firmware update test results for the Emotiva RMC-1?

There aren't many recommended AVPs as they really don't perform much better than the better AVRs.

Are you going to keep the same speaker configuration?

 

[peng]

The other obvious AVP to consider is the Anthem AVM90.

Anthem AVM90 AV Processor Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Anthem AVM90 home theater 15.4 channel Audio/Video Processor. It was sent to me by the company and is on sale for US $6375. As you see, the AVM90 sports a gorgeous, high contrast and large display. It is a joy to navigate this feature as it is...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Did you see the firmware update test results for the Emotiva RMC-1?

There aren't many recommended AVPs as they really don't perform much better than the better AVRs.

Are you going to keep the same speaker configuration?

The AV10 is probably the closest to what he wants. The AVM90 does not have balanced inputs for his Eversolo. I don't think those balanced inputs do anything useful but people want them. As far as I know there are no AVPs (okay not sure about the super expensive Trinnov, and the likes of those) that have the end to end double differential kind of so called "fully, or truly" balanced I/Os any more, after the Denon AVP-A1HDCI, not that I think such expensive implementation of "balanced" helps at all.

 

[welwynnick]

Yes, but the AV10 internal processing is single ended, and only the final stage of the output is differential. I don't think any of the options stand out.

The A1HD has been on my radar for a long time, a real cost no object piece, but never took the plunge (I do have the DVD-A1UDCI which I rather like). I'd be curious to see how it would perform with Amir's current suite of tests.

Looking at some of Amir's test results, balanced outputs usually measure better. They're intended to support connections that reject external noise and interference and are more resistant to hum loops. However I get the impression that balanced circuits are also quite effective at minimising INTERNAL noise and interference.

The Marantz 8805 does have an XLR input, and so do some Trinnov processors. but looking around they're quite rare on AVP's.

Going by the favourable measured results of the McIntosh MX100, I'm sure the MX123 would be good.

McIntosh MX100 A/V Processor Review

McIntosh MX100 A/V Processor Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

There's always the Denon AVC-A1H.

 

[peng]

Yes, but the AV10 internal processing is single ended, and only the final stage of the output is differential. I don't think any of the options stand out.

The A1HD has been on my radar for a long time, a real cost no object piece, but never took the plunge (I do have the DVD-A1UDCI which I rather like). I'd be curious to see how it would perform with Amir's current suite of tests.

Looking at some of Amir's test results, balanced outputs usually measure better. They're intended to support connections that reject external noise and interference and are more resistant to hum loops. However I get the impression that balanced circuits are also quite effective at minimising INTERNAL noise and interference.

The Marantz 8805 does have an XLR input, and so do some Trinnov processors. but looking around they're quite rare on AVP's.

Going by the favourable measured results of the McIntosh MX100, I'm sure the MX123 would be good.

McIntosh MX100 A/V Processor Review

McIntosh MX100 A/V Processor Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

There's always the Denon AVC-A1H.

As I said the A1HDCI maybe the last of its kind. There are no more end to end balanced/differential I/O, at least for those under $10K ones that I am aware of, maybe you do?
I don't know about the AV10, I do know the AV8801's XLR inputs are not single ended.

 

[Vacceo]

The AV10 is probably the closest to what he wants. The AVM90 does not have balanced inputs for his Eversolo. I don't think those balanced inputs do anything useful but people want them. As far as I know there are no AVPs (okay not sure about the super expensive Trinnov, and the likes of those) that have the end to end double differential kind of so called "fully, or truly" balanced I/Os any more, after the Denon AVP-A1HDCI, not that I think such expensive implementation of "balanced" helps at all.

Don´t quote me on this, but I think the MacIntosh MX100 is fully balanced. Still, fully balanced or not, it´s one of the best processors in raw performance.

However, I´d go for the AV10 as recommended for several reasons: Dirac compatibility, familiarity comming from Denon (similar UI and settings), diverse connectivity (including a quite nice phono), a lot more flexible (including zones 2 and 3), full HDMI 2.1 (can be used for gaming)...

If going MacIntosh is a thing, I´d wait a bit to see what they have in store in the near future considering that the MX100 is a bit outdated. The MHT300 is a quite nice AVR with very competent amplification (Hypex), but I´m not sure if Mac will allow Dirac DLBC (or Art in the future) to be used.

 

[Baldrick]

AV10 / AVM90 - thanks for the suggestions, I'll take a look. But lack of balanced inputs/outputs is a blocker at the moment - switching from single ended to balanced with my current AVP-A1HD made an audible difference to me. Of course anything new will likely sound different. Whether I perceive it to be better is another question, at this point I'm after ideas of what to listen to ;-)

There's not a lot of info around about the Mac processors. The MX180 is out of my price range but I might be able to justify the MX123 in a weak moment. I'm not wedded to its looks but I guess it'd go with my MC205 and I think it does everything I need (and then some).

The likeliest outcome is that I'll:

1. Compare 4K vs. 1080p by connecting my AppleTV straight to the new pj when I have it (next week?) to see if I notice a difference with 4K.
2. Do nothing until the AVP A1HD dies. Then ... buy the MX123

 

[Vacceo]

I'd go for the second. If you like Mac gear, chances are they will release AVP's with full Dirac implementation and a more updated HDMI board in the near future. The MX123 is not a bad processor, but it needs its features revamped.

In the end, if you're going 4K, might as well get Dolby Vision, HDR+, options on EQ...

 

[Svend P]

How about a Denon AVC-X4800H? Dirac alone will make it an improvement over the A1HD.

 

[peng]

Don´t quote me on this, but I think the MacIntosh MX100 is fully balanced. Still, fully balanced or not, it´s one of the best processors in raw performance.

I don't know, I checked that out on their website and found no evidence. Usually, if there do the so called end to end fully balanced thing they would say so in their marketing info because audiophiles consider such feature a positive. In reality, from engineering standpoint there is no practical advantage especially when cost is a consideration.

However, I´d go for the AV10 as recommended for several reasons: Dirac compatibility, familiarity comming from Denon (similar UI and settings), diverse connectivity (including a quite nice phono), a lot more flexible (including zones 2 and 3), full HDMI 2.1 (can be used for gaming)...

I don't know enough about the likes of Trinnov, Stormaudio class devices, other than those, imo the AV10 has only one close equal, if balanced outputs are not needed, that is, Masimo's own AVC-A1H. The AVM 90 has almost the same performance score on the bench, but it lacks quite a few useful features that the AV10 and A1H has, such as the balanced inputs, DTS:X Pro, Room (okay not certified as such but at least you can use those now instead of still waiting on Anthem's next FW update, with no ETA announced yet). Dirac Live is of course the great attraction, those keep in mind that means adding $800 (approx) to the price whereas Anthem ARC G is include for the AVM, but not the same thing for sure.

If going MacIntosh is a thing, I´d wait a bit to see what they have in store in the near future considering that the MX100 is a bit outdated. The MHT300 is a quite nice AVR with very competent amplification (Hypex), but I´m not sure if Mac will allow Dirac DLBC (or Art in the future) to be used.

Yeah, go with the MX123 then.

 

[peng]

How about a Denon AVC-X4800H? Dirac alone will make it an improvement over the A1HD.

I would agree, but what do you expect their owners to do with the 75-80 lbs (in the box)? I wouldn't mind paying for shipping, but other than that I wouldn't pay more than $200 for one lol.. It is something that is still very useful if you already have it, but won't get much for it.

 

[Svend P]

I would agree, but what do you expect their owners to do with the 75-80 lbs (in the box)? I wouldn't mind paying for shipping, but other than that I wouldn't pay more than $200 for one lol.. It is something that is still very useful if you already have it, but won't get much for it.

Luckily I sold my AVP-A1HD many years ago, as it turned out many of them become paperweights from broken boards, and are superseded by new technology (Dirac, Atmos, 4K)

 

[Vacceo]

I don't know, I checked that out on their website and found no evidence. Usually, if there do the so called end to end fully balanced thing they would say so in their marketing info because audiophiles consider such feature a positive. In reality, from engineering standpoint there is no practical advantage especially when cost is a consideration.

I don't know enough about the likes of Trinnov, Stormaudio class devices, other than those, imo the AV10 has only one close equal, if balanced outputs are not needed, that is, Masimo's own AVC-A1H. The AVM 90 has almost the same performance score on the bench, but it lacks quite a few useful features that the AV10 and A1H has, such as the balanced inputs, DTS:X Pro, Room (okay not certified as such but at least you can use those now instead of still waiting on Anthem's next FW update, with no ETA announced yet). Dirac Live is of course the great attraction, those keep in mind that means adding $800 (approx) to the price whereas Anthem ARC G is include for the AVM, but not the same thing for sure.

Yeah, go with the MX123 then.

On the usability department, I´d have to give Marantz some extra points. Controling their gear with an APP as well as with the remote is a little extra that can be super convenient for many users.

Heos is an environment I have no experience with, but other users can probably tell something about it.

 

[peng]

Luckily I sold my AVP-A1HD many years ago, as it turned out many of them become paperweights from broken boards, and are superseded by new technology (Dirac, Atmos, 4K)

Congrats to your success in recouping some of your initial investment then.

Well, that thing has the following unusual count of heat producing parts (most user who own such a master piece likely never bother to use external cooling, thinking there is no need):

- A total of only 12 channels (excluding Z2,Z3) vs the AV10's 19 channels, yet it has quite a few more DAC and ADC ICs than the AV10
- Use of the notoriously hot running Silicon Optix Reon HQV video ICs for superb upscaling, yeah to only 1080 p lol..
- Two toroidal PS transformer plus a few E-I core.

In my opinion, such double differential end to end balanced is poor engineering, practically speaking, ommv.

No wonder it has board failure after 8-10 years of daily use. Gene's never failed, but we can imagine how often he used it, likely rarely if I am to guess.

 

[peng]

On the usability department, I´d have to give Marantz some extra points. Controling their gear with an APP as well as with the remote is a little extra that can be super convenient for many users.

Heos is an environment I have no experience with, but other users can probably tell something about it.

I would also give them bonus point for including the choice of two dac filters, finally/and indirectly admitting that's the reason for the so called Marantz musical/warm sound, not the virtually (might be useful in some use conditions) do nothing (in terms of sound signature/quality) HDAMs. Still, most people probably still can't hear a difference using either filter.

 

[Vacceo]

I would also give them bonus point for including the choice of two dac filters, finally/and indirectly admitting that's the reason for the so called Marantz musical/warm sound, not the virtually (might be useful in some use conditions) do nothing (in terms of sound signature/quality) HDAMs. Still, most people probably still can't hear a difference using either filter.

It reminds me from the old Denon modes such as bathroom sound, terrible disco and so on. Those had other official names, but the results were pretty much those. It´s nice that you can simply keep it clean.

 

[Baldrick]

How about a Denon AVC-X4800H? Dirac alone will make it an improvement over the A1HD.

Looks like that has power amps built in - which would be a waste of money for me.

 

[Baldrick]

I don't know, I checked that out on their website and found no evidence. Usually, if there do the so called end to end fully balanced thing they would say so in their marketing info because audiophiles consider such feature a positive. In reality, from engineering standpoint there is no practical advantage especially when cost is a consideration.

I don't know enough about the likes of Trinnov, Stormaudio class devices, other than those, imo the AV10 has only one close equal, if balanced outputs are not needed, that is, Masimo's own AVC-A1H. The AVM 90 has almost the same performance score on the bench, but it lacks quite a few useful features that the AV10 and A1H has, such as the balanced inputs, DTS:X Pro, Room (okay not certified as such but at least you can use those now instead of still waiting on Anthem's next FW update, with no ETA announced yet). Dirac Live is of course the great attraction, those keep in mind that means adding $800 (approx) to the price whereas Anthem ARC G is include for the AVM, but not the same thing for sure.

Yeah, go with the MX123 then.

I found someone on another site who'd got in contact with McIntosh who confirmed they're fully balanced internally. I think I'd confirm myself before buying (it does seem odd to not shout about it a bit more) rather than trusting the word of someone on the 'net ... but of course the most important thing is how it sounds to me. I won't know that until I get closer to pulling the trigger on something.

 

[Baldrick]

I would agree, but what do you expect their owners to do with the 75-80 lbs (in the box)? I wouldn't mind paying for shipping, but other than that I wouldn't pay more than $200 for one lol.. It is something that is still very useful if you already have it, but won't get much for it.

I don't expect to be able to sell it tbh. I've still got a (non-working) Arcam Xeta One and a Yamaha DSP-A1 with a failed display somewhere... Hoarder? Me?