Suggestions for Denon AVP-A1HD replacement please!

[Baldrick]

In my opinion, such double differential end to end balanced is poor engineering, practically speaking, ommv.

I'm curious about this assertion ... why is it poor engineering?

 

[Svend P]

Looks like that has power amps built in - which would be a waste of money for me.

It is still a cheap solution. You can switch off the power amps internally, and it'll sound just as good as any "high end" surround preamplifier out there.

 

[Baldrick]

It is still a cheap solution. You can switch off the power amps internally, and it'll sound just as good as any "high end" surround preamplifier out there.

I'm not particularly after cheap. I don't want to spend more than I need to but I want it to sound good.

As for "it'll sound just as good" ... a comparison I have is when I was first looking at getting a projector (~15 years ago?) and the only amp the dealer had available was about a third of the price of the amp I was using at the time. And it sounded horrible. Going even further back auditioning "stereo" systems I found some high end kit sounded nasty (e.g. Krell). So I'll listen to anything but experience tells me I'll prefer the sort of kit I've been talking about.

 

[Svend P]

I'm not particularly after cheap. I don't want to spend more than I need to but I want it to sound good.

As for "it'll sound just as good" ... a comparison I have is when I was first looking at getting a projector (~15 years ago?) and the only amp the dealer had available was about a third of the price of the amp I was using at the time. And it sounded horrible. Going even further back auditioning "stereo" systems I found some high end kit sounded nasty (e.g. Krell). So I'll listen to anything but experience tells me I'll prefer the sort of kit I've been talking about.

Welcome to ASR. Amplifiers all sound the same. The differences you heard were all in your head. No one can tell them apart blind. I thought the NAD M15HD I replaced the Denon A1HD with was much better. Then I learned on ASR that there was no difference, and I have not experienced any change with the Denon X4800H.

List of blind tests:

Links to blind listening tests

Links to blind listening tests

hydrogenaud.io

 

[peng]

I'm curious about this assertion ... why is it poor engineering?

Not poor period, but poor practically speaking only. Doubling the cost of just parts alone, without audible benefits, is the reason I consider it poor, again, just practically speaking. On paper/in theory, if done right, it can reduce even order harmonics.

Think about it, the likes of the AVM 90, AV10, AVC-A1H, have distortions comprise of even harmonics at below -110 dB, can anyone tell a difference if those are further reduce to say -120 dB, or completely eliminate them by perfectly implemented double differential end to balanced connections? I don't think so, and you probably would agree with me on at least this point.

 

[peng]

I found someone on another site who'd got in contact with McIntosh who confirmed they're fully balanced internally. I think I'd confirm myself before buying (it does seem odd to not shout about it a bit more) rather than trusting the word of someone on the 'net ... but of course the most important thing is how it sounds to me. I won't know that until I get closer to pulling the trigger on something.

If he was told by McIntosh's engineering, I would believe it. If told only by first line customer support, the I would be skeptical. Are you talking about the MX123?

 

[peng]

An example of fully balanced Mc preamp:

McIntosh Vacuum Tube and Solid State Stereo Preamplifiers

McIntosh vacuum tube and solid state stereo Preamplifiers offer an unmatched level of connectivity and control of your home audio system.

www.mcintoshlabs.com

It is clearly stated, "fully balanced". Obviously it is easier to implement such schemes in 2 ch preamps, more complicatedin multichannel preamp processors.

 

[Baldrick]

If he was told by McIntosh's engineering, I would believe it. If told only by first line customer support, the I would be skeptical. Are you talking about the MX123?

https://emotivalounge.proboards.com/post/1082350/thread

 

[Baldrick]

Not poor period, but poor practically speaking only. Doubling the cost of just parts alone, without audible benefits, is the reason I consider it poor, again, just practically speaking. On paper/in theory, if done right, it can reduce even order harmonics.

Think about it, the likes of the AVM 90, AV10, AVC-A1H, have distortions comprise of even harmonics at below -110 dB, can anyone tell a difference if those are further reduce to say -120 dB, or completely eliminate them by perfectly implemented double differential end to balanced connections? I don't think so, and you probably would agree with me on at least this point.

What you say makes sense but I’ll save agreement for the listening room

 

[peng]

What you say makes sense but I’ll save agreement for the listening room

Sighted? If so, you know what the experts, even those with PhD said about sighted listening right? Though you likely don't care what they said and some of their findings either.

 

[Baldrick]

Sighted? If so, you know what the experts, even those with PhD said about sighted listening right? Though you likely don't care what they said and some of their findings either.

I’ll happily listen unsighted. Why do you think I wouldn’t care? Why else would I be asking on this forum?

 

[Svend P]

What you say makes sense but I’ll save agreement for the listening room

If you trust your ears, you have to listen blind. And then the differences disappear. This is well documented

and

Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

Hello friend. Hey, listen...we know how it is. Believe me, most of us have been there too. You've spent years toiling in the muck of audiophilia. You read ALL the reviews. You watched ALL the youtube videos. You visited ALL the other forums where everything always makes a difference. You...

www.audiosciencereview.com

edit: and this

Audio Blind Testing - You Are Doing It Wrong! (Video)

Just uploaded a video on the basics of performing controlled tests in audio. It was motivated by saving myself text in having to write all of this down when telling someone who to do these tests right. And as a counter to a few online personalities to keep saying they do "blind" tests yet when...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[peng]

I’ll happily listen unsighted. Why do you think I wouldn’t care? Why else would I be asking on this forum?

Sorry, I should not have assumed anything. I assumed, only because you seem to believe "fully balanced" would sound better, even when we are talking about audio preamps as good as the MX123, and AV10.

I am not saying the two will sound the same, but if dsps are not involved, such truly hifi gear will most likely sound indisguishable except in sighted listening.

 

[Vacceo]

I'm not particularly after cheap. I don't want to spend more than I need to but I want it to sound good.

As for "it'll sound just as good" ... a comparison I have is when I was first looking at getting a projector (~15 years ago?) and the only amp the dealer had available was about a third of the price of the amp I was using at the time. And it sounded horrible. Going even further back auditioning "stereo" systems I found some high end kit sounded nasty (e.g. Krell). So I'll listen to anything but experience tells me I'll prefer the sort of kit I've been talking about.

15 years years ago you couldn't find amps such as Purifi or Hypex nor AVP's north of 100 db SINAD.

Room EQ had improved a lot too, so you'll be gladly surprised with the extra performance you're getting.

Mac AVP's are very good looking (to me at least) but I think they are overpriced considering their features. They are well-built and perform well, which is the good part.

 

[Svend P]

But lack of balanced inputs/outputs is a blocker at the moment - switching from single ended to balanced with my current AVP-A1HD made an audible difference to me.

There is no difference in sound quality going to balanced connections. It is all about avoiding noise and hum, and it is not necessary in home hifi. You may have been fooled by a difference in sound level instead.

Why does so much High End audio not use balanced connections?

I use audio connections for live music and would never use anything but balanced when I have the choice. Yet so much high end audio which is supposedly meticulous about sound quality makes do with RCA connections. They are fine for what they do, but I hear significant differences when compared...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[welwynnick]

Welcome to ASR. Amplifiers all sound the same. The differences you heard were all in your head. No one can tell them apart blind.

That's a bit of a sweeping statement. If it's true, why bother with ASR at all?

Fortunately all amplifiers do not sound the same. Sighted listening of audible differences is not proof of a difference, but blind listening of audible differences is proof. I've done both.

 

[Svend P]

That's a bit of a sweeping statement. If it's true, why bother with ASR at all?

Fortunately all amplifiers do not sound the same. Sighted listening of audible differences is not proof of a difference, but blind listening of audible differences is proof. I've done both.

Which amplifiers were that, did you do a double blind test, level matched?

Double Blind tests *did* show amplifiers to sound different

In many online debates, position taken by some that when amplifiers are used that have flat frequency response and low distortion that no double blind tests have shown them to sound different. Well, I managed to dig up a 32 year old test that says otherwise. What is fascinating is that one of...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Svend P]

If it's true, why bother with ASR at all?

Why do you think Amirn doesn't post listening impressions of the amplifiers he reviews, but does for speakers and headphones?

It lifts a burden from your shoulders. That is the point of ASR. You never have to worry about electronics again, and you don't have to have the latest and greatest.

 

[peng]

That's a bit of a sweeping statement. If it's true, why bother with ASR at all?

Fortunately all amplifiers do not sound the same. Sighted listening of audible differences is not proof of a difference, but blind listening of audible differences is proof. I've done both.

Of course amplifiers can sound different, or the same, it always depends on other factors. You can do a DBT on the subject AVP-A1HDCI and and a Yamaha RX-A1080, both paired with the Benchmark AHB2 power amp set to low gain, driving a pair of Revel Salon2, or my BMR bookshelves, and you will hear a difference and score better than 50/50. People should avoid making blanket statements. Most would say things like all well designed power amps will sound the same if used within their limits, that's not bullet proof but much better than saying all amps sound the same.

 

[Svend P]

Of course amplifiers can sound different, or the same, it always depends on other factors. You can do a DBT on the subject AVP-A1HDCI and and a Yamaha RX-A1080, both paired with the Benchmark AHB2 power amp set to low gain, driving a pair of Revel Salon2, or my BMR bookshelves, and you will hear a difference and score better than 50/50. People should avoid making blanket statements. Most would say things like all well designed power amps will sound the same if used within their limits, that's not bullet proof but much better than saying all amps sound the same.

At least I provided at bunch of links as documentation for my statements. What do you have, except an unsubstantiated claim?