Elac Adante AS-61 Speaker Review

[amirm]

Worth requesting samples of the S300 and S400 from Buchardt as well.

Thanks. I have good relationship with Buchardt so we are set there.

 

[Xyrium]

Kef R3 and Revel M106's are pretty close I guess?

Anyway, these were on my list of speakers I was looking at but I don't like what I see. Especially cabinet vibration at higher volumes put me off.

The M106s are on my list, Elacs never have been, regardless of the almost comical high praise they've gotten in the press. The R3's seem very nice indeed.

So the big "woofer" (PR) in front is just for show, and the tiny one behind is the real one. That's cheating!

I almost fell over when I saw the cutaway. I can't believe it's actually a passive radiator up front. Why? Why?

 

[andreasmaaan]

I almost fell over when I saw the cutaway. I can't believe it's actually a passive radiator up front. Why? Why?

Actually, @amirm explains one of the reasons for this in the review:

"This is a 3-way speaker but the woofer is hidden inside with a port. It then couples to the passive radiator that looks like a woofer. This design uses the filtering that the acoustic coupling provides to also cut out the harmonic distortions of the woofer."

As Amir says, one advantage of this design is that the woofer is low-passed by the front chamber and passive radiator, which cuts any harmonic distortion produced by the woofer above the upper cutoff of the bandpass.

Another key advantage is that a band pass system such as this increases the efficiency of the woofer in the range of the band-pass. So you end up with higher efficiency in the system's operating range. From this, it can also be inferred that, for a given SPL, the level of distortion is lower than in a conventional design (since the woofer's voice coil doesn't need to displace as far as it otherwise would for the same sound pressure output). Looking at the harmonic distortion measurements, below, you can see that there is indeed an impressively low degree of distortion in the operating range of the band-pass (approximately 50-200Hz).

Another possible advantage may be that fewer or likely no passive crossover components are needed for the woofer section, since as mentioned the system acoustically low-pass filters the output from the woofer.

However, a major disadvantage is that the operating range of a system like this is very restricted. And indeed, we see precisely the effects of this disadvantage quite clearly in the measurements: Because the woofer system's high-frequency cutoff is only around 200Hz, this sets a hard upper limit on the frequency at which it can cross over to the midrange unit.

In this case, it appears that this limit was not high enough for an optimal transition to the midrange unit, and this has resulted in a high level of distortion towards the lower limit of the midrange unit's operating range (approximately 200-350Hz, as shown below):

EDIT: Also perhaps interesting to some to note that the dip in frequency response around 200Hz is likely to be wholly or partially a result of this unusual design choice. The low-pass filter resulting from a band-pass system of this kind is very steep, and does not necessarily conform to standard crossover alignments. I suspect it wasn't quite possible to implement an electrical high-pass filter on the midrange unit that allowed its acoustical output to perfectly match (in terms of amplitude and phase) that of the woofer system's acoustical low-pass filter. It would be interesting to see the amplitude/phase responses of the two individual units.

 

[Juhazi]

Too low WM xo stresses the coaxial mid too much! The mid has small surface area (Sd) and thus is driven to excessive excursion causing THD and also IMD to skyrocket.
Highish distortion 1.5-2kHz obviously comes from stressed tweeter, but % is tolerable and typical for modern 2-way designs.
Bandpass makes woofer's low end too steep. 2 octaves band is enough for a subwoofer, but not for a woofer in a 3-way.

In total, Adante speakers are not well implemented. Even dsp-activation can't correct bandpass acoustic behaviour. I don't understand how they ended in production lines. KEF LS50 is kind of similar underachievement with massive effort. Both designed under AJ's conduction...

p.s. I guess now everyone understands why "we critics" wanted to see also distortion spectrum!

 

[thewas]

KEF LS50 is kind of similar underachievement. Both designed under AJ's conduction...

LS50 wasn't designed by AJ and has except its midcentric balance (which was done to voice it a bit similar to LS3/5a) no such issues of high upper bass distortion although it uses just a similarly small coaxial driver full range, and thus can corrected nicely with EQ.

 

[Juhazi]

About floor reflection in normal living rooms, I have found that if I EQ listening spot bass-lowmid response flat, sound is too bass heavy or "chesty" as audiophiles would say. Most automatic EQ systems will do that.

Ok, AJ was designing KEF's Uni-Q coaxials, but not the LS50 http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue30/andrew_jones.htm

Products that I have contributed to or been responsible for include KEF 107/2, many of the UNI-Q reference line of speakers, the KEF K-UBE electronics, Infinity Prelude, Overture and Reference Series speakers, Pioneer TZ700 series, and now the TAD and EX speakers.

DC How did this shape your design philosophy or approach in designing speakers for today?

AJ First, my time at KEF taught me a great deal about engineering not just speaker systems, but the drivers themselves. At that time we made all our own drivers, so we built all the prototypes ourselves. We also pioneered new measurement techniques, spending around $100k for our first HP Fourier analyzer back in the late 70s, a fortune. We also did a lot of work in computer aided network design and cabinet vibration isolation techniques. Then of course came the work with the UNI-Q. These factors have stayed with me in various forms. The discipline of good measurements correlated properly to listening, no fear of complex x-overs when necessary, and the proper control of driver directivity and off axis response.

 

[thewas]

Yes, he was involved to earlier Uni-Q designs.

The discipline of good measurements correlated properly to listening

If you listen to him in recent interviews its seems he have changed a bit since then giving measurements less importance and more to listening which I guess shows on this review, which approach is more "correct" would be interesting to see in a larger blind A-B listening test for example versus the similar smoother measuring KEF R3 3-way coaxial.

 

[Boatswain]

Cumulative spectral decay from this angle, it looks better!

 

[Rick Sykora]

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Elac (USA designed) Adante AS-61 stand-mount (large bookshelf) speaker. It was kindly purchased by a member new and drop shipped to me. This is part of the series designed by Andrew Jones who is probably the most famous speaker designer in consumer world. The AS-61 has a retail price of US $2,500 for a pair but I see it on sale for US $1,500...


Spinorama Audio Measurements
Acoustic measurements can be grouped in a way that can be perceptually analyzed to determine how good a speaker can be used. This so called spinorama shows us just about everything we need to know about the speaker with respect to tonality and some flaws:

View attachment 50418

For whatever reason, I expected to see a much more flat response. We have a dip at 200 Hz where the crossover is from the woofer to mid-range. Maybe it is hard to better tune this with the internal woofer? Regardless, the room will obliterate this part of the response so what you get at the end of the day, is not this dip although we do want to start with flat response if we can.

The dip around 7 kHz seems to be typical of coaxial drivers and disappears off-axis. Don't have an explanation for the final dip as we approach 20 kHz. It seems to be designed that way.

the ”final dip“ is likely just the natural driver roll off. Since any do not hear much in that range, designers tend to leave alone. Can always tweak with eq. If it were a nasty peak, might add a notch filter but adds cost to crossover.

...Since reducing distortion is a key design goal in this speaker, let's look at those metrics:

View attachment 50423

View attachment 50424

It seems like low frequency distortion below 200 Hz is indeed very low. But then it peaks likely because the mid-range can't handle such low frequencies well.

We also have rising distortion around the crossover frequencies indicating the midrange is starting to get unhappy before the tweeter takes over.

Note that all of this is gated in-room response so not the most reliable data.

the gating is affecting the measurement below what frequency? Speaker design is a set of tradeoffs, but getting lower distortion in bass for higher in mid-bass (and midrange!) seems very odd.


...As always, questions, comments, recommendations, etc. are welcome

Weather is warming up early this year so soon I need to get going on my vegetable starts. Alas, I spent all my money on measurement gear for speakers so need money for seeds, soil, etc. Please donate a few dollars so I can eat healthy come this summer using: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/how-to-support-audio-science-review.8150/

 

[617]

Too low WM xo stresses the coaxial mid too much! The mid has small surface area (Sd) and thus is driven to excessive excursion causing THD and also IMD to skyrocket.
Highish distortion 1.5-2kHz obviously comes from stressed tweeter, but % is tolerable and typical for modern 2-way designs.
Bandpass makes woofer's low end too steep. 2 octaves band is enough for a subwoofer, but not for a woofer in a 3-way.

In total, Adante speakers are not well implemented. Even dsp-activation can't correct bandpass acoustic behaviour. I don't understand how they ended in production lines. KEF LS50 is kind of similar underachievement with massive effort. Both designed under AJ's conduction...

p.s. I guess now everyone understands why "we critics" wanted to see also distortion spectrum!

As another speaker DIYers this jumps out at me as well. 200hz is very low for a M/W crossover, and especially in a small format 3 way such as this. A bandpass woofer 3 way is frankly a bizarre design choice to my eyes, and it's all to produce loud bass in a small box.

I suppose it goes to show how expensive big boxes are to produce and sell, because if you replaced this PR/woofer combo with a woofer and port of similar cost in a slightly bigger box, you'd have much better performance. Just to save money on a big capacitor/inductor and some mdf.

I could be totally wrong on the motivation but this is a very atypical speaker.

 

[wwenze]

At 47 litres this isn't exactly small... 306P is 23 litres

Or should we actually treat it as a 8-incher instead since that is the size of the passive radiator? Think most 8-inchers can reach 40Hz without much problem, so bass is definitely not an issue at this size...

 

[miike888]

I need to get a comparably priced speaker as a reference for both objective and subjective comparisons. Without it, I am being a bit soft in my final stance.

If you could you should get a pair of KEF:s

They sound and measure very good!

 

[amadeuswus]

Too low WM xo stresses the coaxial mid too much! The mid has small surface area (Sd) and thus is driven to excessive excursion causing THD and also IMD to skyrocket.

Hi Juhazi

I know that you know Gradient speakers very well, and if I remember correctly, the Gradient Revolution also has a 200hz crossover from its dipole woofers to its coaxial mid/tweeter unit. Does the Revolution also suffer from the stress issues you mentioned?

 

[infinitesymphony]

If you could you should get a pair of KEF:s

They sound and measure very good!

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/kef-ls50-bookshelf-speaker-review.11144/

 

[VonGoethe]

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/kef-ls50-bookshelf-speaker-review.11144/

Hope that Amirm will measure the active version of the LS50 - think this is an other league.
But then he has to do 3 reviews - one for the dac, one for the amp and one for the speakers ;-)

 

[LTig]

Stereo Magazine 19 by Matthias Böde

https://stereo-magazine.com/flipview/28

View attachment 50447View attachment 50448

Matthias Böde has, as far as I know or recall, never said anything critical about anything he has reviewed. I witnessed 3 events (demos) which were flawed, especially one where three speakers were compared (different base width, the cheapest were closest together).

 

[andreasmaaan]

As another speaker DIYers this jumps out at me as well. 200hz is very low for a M/W crossover, and especially in a small format 3 way such as this. A bandpass woofer 3 way is frankly a bizarre design choice to my eyes, and it's all to produce loud bass in a small box.

The thing is, 200Hz is an absolutely typical frequency at which to cross over a mid in a 3-way. It seems to me the bandpass section (at least if looked at in isolation) is actually where this speaker gets the most things right! It's more that this was the wrong midrange to try to cross it over to (well that's one way of looking at it, anyway).

Having said that, like you, I'm not at all convinced that the bandpass approach to woofer system design is worth the tradeoffs in general, especially not in a passive speaker where aligning the woofer system with the midrange is going to be difficult. So it strikes me as an odd choice here, too.

 

[Spocko]

Amir's measurements appear to be consistent with observations made in this similarly disappointed CNET review: (edit: "subjective observations" that is)
https://www.cnet.com/news/elac-aims-higher-with-its-new-adante-as-61-speaker/

 

[mhardy6647]

As another speaker DIYers this jumps out at me as well. 200hz is very low for a M/W crossover, and especially in a small format 3 way such as this. A bandpass woofer 3 way is frankly a bizarre design choice to my eyes, and it's all to produce loud bass in a small box.

I suppose it goes to show how expensive big boxes are to produce and sell, because if you replaced this PR/woofer combo with a woofer and port of similar cost in a slightly bigger box, you'd have much better performance. Just to save money on a big capacitor/inductor and some mdf.

I could be totally wrong on the motivation but this is a very atypical speaker.

I will mention, FWIW (and I may well be missing some of the point, as you'll see) that the bigger Adante(s) also use the bandpass woofer topology, albeit in a much, much larger box.

source: https://www.stereophile.com/content/elac-adante-af-61-loudspeaker

As an aside (but not totally unrelated): One of the veterans at the Polk forums has a pair of the larger AF-61 Adantes which, due to some internal issues, he got to know perhaps a bit more intimately than he had been expecting to . Just to be clear, he is really, really happy with these.

 

[Billy Budapest]

No wonder this speaker had such a short lifespan.