• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Does R11 need dual subwoofer?

simplywyn

Senior Member
Joined
May 29, 2020
Messages
333
Likes
286
Location
Canada
I've been enjoying my R11's and they are great in my newfound basement sound room. However, I'm noticing that the Q950's I have in my entertainment room simply sound way more fun, and punchy. However obviously they don't come close to the detail and sheer size of the R11, I do feel like a big of a buyers remorse considering they are 2x the price of my q950's.

Has anyone experienced with R11's? Do they need a set of subwoofers to make them really punch?

I've seen certain discussions where R11's need a dual set of subwoofers with room correction and dirac to really make them sing... I'm wondering if it is worth the investment
 

abdo123

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 15, 2020
Messages
7,446
Likes
7,955
Location
Brussels, Belgium
How far are you listening from them? If the number is not at least 6 meters then don’t bother. Each speaker should have the capability of a 12-inch sub. 15-inch even. Need to do the math. (Edit: less than 15 inch, more than 12).

Room correction is definitely worth the investment, so is room placement tinkering.

If you have a multichannel setup with a receiver (or generally listen to multichannel content like movies or Dolby Atmos music on streaming services) then you’re losing the content on tje .1 channel in 5.1 mix for example.
 
OP
simplywyn

simplywyn

Senior Member
Joined
May 29, 2020
Messages
333
Likes
286
Location
Canada
I'm approx 4 meters away. They simply don't have the same punch as Q950's, and doing some frequency sweeps, they basically go silent around 30-40hz.
 

abdo123

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 15, 2020
Messages
7,446
Likes
7,955
Location
Brussels, Belgium
I'm approx 4 meters away. They simply don't have the same punch as Q950's, and doing some frequency sweeps, they basically go silent around 30-40hz.

You should theoretically have usable response down to 20Hz 30Hz. That’s the -10 dB point of the speaker.

I would look up on the internet for techniques to find the best seat bass response wise without using measurements. If you have or purchase a measurement microphone we can help you too.
 
Last edited:
OP
simplywyn

simplywyn

Senior Member
Joined
May 29, 2020
Messages
333
Likes
286
Location
Canada
Thanks, I'm going to borrow some SVS PB2000's and test them out as well to see if it's worthwhile to get them
 

abdo123

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 15, 2020
Messages
7,446
Likes
7,955
Location
Brussels, Belgium
Also just to relieve your buyers remorse, the R11 is miles better than the Q950 with regards to bass capabilities, the 950 uses passive radiators and one gigantic coincentric driver (8-inch?), while the R11 uses four 6.5 inch independent bass drivers which excceed the surface area of a 12 inch driver.

Edit: the Q950 has also an independent 8 inch bass driver, well either way the four 6 inch drivers are superior.
 

abdo123

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 15, 2020
Messages
7,446
Likes
7,955
Location
Brussels, Belgium
F0BCBCD9-8863-4167-ACD0-7CFF392564DB.png
Oh i was mistaken about 20Hz being the -10 dB point on the R11, it seems like it’s more like 30Hz.



Honestly it still shouldn’t make a big difference with music, make sure when you try the subs to keep the crossover at 40Hz, otherwise you would be doubling your bass.
 

killdozzer

Major Contributor
Joined
Aug 2, 2020
Messages
1,615
Likes
1,632
Location
Zagreb
Some nice advice and info from @abdo123

Thing is, even if you're wondering whether there's need, it's still up to you in the end. Most towers don't come with a sub capability. They have a woofer, not a subwoofer. This means they're covering different parts of sound specter and every tower will benefit from subs to some extent. It's more about you feeling something lacking. Q950 are really good, but I don't expect them to have such an audible advantage over R11.

The very first culprit on my list would be the room R11 are placed in. I would start experimenting with the placement of the speakers and my listening position. At certain points in one's room, bass is being, as they say; "sucked out".

I know sometimes this doesn't help much. If the room is such that there's no good bass, you simply have to opt for subs, but even then you'll have to look for the spots where to place them to get bass. Even with subs some people have these kinds of problems.

One more thing; if you have the will and time to tinker around, I'd replace basement speakers with entertainment room speakers. This should tell you a lot about the sour4ce of your problems.
 

tuga

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 5, 2020
Messages
3,984
Likes
4,285
Location
Oxford, England
I've been enjoying my R11's and they are great in my newfound basement sound room. However, I'm noticing that the Q950's I have in my entertainment room simply sound way more fun, and punchy. However obviously they don't come close to the detail and sheer size of the R11, I do feel like a big of a buyers remorse considering they are 2x the price of my q950's.

Has anyone experienced with R11's? Do they need a set of subwoofers to make them really punch?

I've seen certain discussions where R11's need a dual set of subwoofers with room correction and dirac to really make them sing... I'm wondering if it is worth the investment
Have you tried swapping the speakers between rooms?
 

DavidMcRoy

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Jul 10, 2018
Messages
576
Likes
997
If the basement has concrete floors and walls, it will be less lively in the bass region than typical rockwall over wood frame walls and wood floors. In a concrete basement, the surfaces don't "chime in," adding their own secondary energy. In audiophile terms, you may find the bass "tighter" but "lacking bloom."
 

tuga

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 5, 2020
Messages
3,984
Likes
4,285
Location
Oxford, England
If the basement has concrete floors and walls, it will be less lively in the bass region than typical rockwall over wood frame walls and wood floors. In a concrete basement, the surfaces don't "chime in," adding their own secondary energy. In audiophile terms, you may find the bass "tighter" but "lacking bloom."

The basement construction will be less "lossy" so there may also be more bass overhang/ringing and the upper-mids and treble might be somewhat exaggerated.

Another possibility would be personal preference for a more coloured presentation.
Believing that flat frequency response and less low-order harmonic distortion is universally preferred might be wishful thinking...
 

killdozzer

Major Contributor
Joined
Aug 2, 2020
Messages
1,615
Likes
1,632
Location
Zagreb
The basement construction will be less "lossy" so there may also be more bass overhang/ringing and the upper-mids and treble might be somewhat exaggerated.
True. I get a lot of bass reinforcement precisely due to long concrete walls. Just last night I played some XX which is bass and drums heavy EDM. While drums are mostly programmed, the bass guitar is often played live. I went to a concert to see XX and one of the two lead members, the guy, is playing the bass. For this type of music I even found my bookshelves exaggerated on the low end.
 

antcollinet

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 4, 2021
Messages
7,740
Likes
13,064
Location
UK/Cheshire
The basement construction will be less "lossy" so there may also be more bass overhang/ringing and the upper-mids and treble might be somewhat exaggerated.

Another possibility would be personal preference for a more coloured presentation.
Believing that flat frequency response and less low-order harmonic distortion is universally preferred might be wishful thinking...
May not even be a preference.

If the OP is used to a bass boomy presentation, then a flatter bass response may sound as though lacking bass. This is what I found when first seting up room EQ. I had to listen for a few days before "getting" the much better presentation given by the EQ.
 

goat76

Major Contributor
Joined
Jul 21, 2021
Messages
1,339
Likes
1,485
I've been enjoying my R11's and they are great in my newfound basement sound room. However, I'm noticing that the Q950's I have in my entertainment room simply sound way more fun, and punchy. However obviously they don't come close to the detail and sheer size of the R11, I do feel like a big of a buyers remorse considering they are 2x the price of my q950's.

Has anyone experienced with R11's? Do they need a set of subwoofers to make them really punch?

I've seen certain discussions where R11's need a dual set of subwoofers with room correction and dirac to really make them sing... I'm wondering if it is worth the investment

As others have already pointed out, try swapping the speakers between the rooms. I think the most interesting thing is how the R11 performs in the entertainment room where you already know your Q950s have a "fun" and "punchy" sound, if the R11 gets a similar sound in that room compared to the basement room you know it's just a room-related problem, which could possibly be solved with changing the listening position and speaker placement in the basement room.

I think a more "punchy" reproduction got more to do with the frequency region of 50 Hz to 100 Hz, so just extending the bass lower than that will probably not give you more "bass slam". The best way to know what is happening in the room is to make some measurements, I bet you don't have enough energy in that particular frequency region.

And of course, it's possible the Q950s have a more fun and dynamic sound than the R11s, that's a parameter that seems to be overlooked when it comes to speaker measurements.
 
Last edited:

FrantzM

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 12, 2016
Messages
4,377
Likes
7,879
Hi

to the OP: It is important to understand that the reproduction of bass depends on the room. You could have a speaker capable of reproducing 10 to 20 KHz flat, no bump, no variations at 120 Hz at 4 meter; once placed in a room it becomes subject to the room influence and to the position of the listener with respect to the low fre
 

tuga

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 5, 2020
Messages
3,984
Likes
4,285
Location
Oxford, England
May not even be a preference.

If the OP is used to a bass boomy presentation, then a flatter bass response may sound as though lacking bass. This is what I found when first seting up room EQ. I had to listen for a few days before "getting" the much better presentation given by the EQ.

Yes, habituation/reference is another possibility.
 

FrantzM

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 12, 2016
Messages
4,377
Likes
7,879
Hi
Short answer: Yes.
The best bass in most any room is obtained with subwoofers, properly integrated with the mains. The R11 need subwoofers. Any speaker need subwoofer. In other words: It is always better to use subwoofers.

To the OP. I will try to keep the rationale for my reply condensed, the subject is however a little bit complex and could require more…

It is important to understand that the reproduction of bass depends on the room. You could have a speaker capable of reproducing 10 Hz to 20 KHz flat, no bump, no variations at 120 dB at 4 meters; once placed in a room it becomes subject to the room influence and to the position of the listener with respect to the low frequency radiators in this example, the speakers. It could be thus, that the placement of your Q950, provides you with a better bass sensation than those of the R11... or it could be where you sit, or it could be the rooms dimensions, or it could be the room construction... or it could be all the above. The last bit could sound flippant or dismissive. It is not.

The perception of bass, to make matter more complicated, is not linear. Let’s suppose the example of a perfect speaker, linear from 20 to 20,000 Hz within 0 db. Flat and no THD, driven by a perfect amplifier. For this mind experiment we suppose also perfect measuring instruments and a humongous anechoic room, so speaker will play as flat as it can. And a perfect SPL meter too . We measure 50 dB at 1000 Hz… We, again measure it at 500 Hz, then 20 Hz. The speaker and room (anechoic) being perfect, we measure 50 dB at 1000 Hz and at 500 and at 20 Hz and... at any frequency in between, 32.01 Hz or 100 Hz .. same sound pressure level: 50 dB. We place a human subject and ask her/him/they to give us her/his/their perception of “loudness”.. How loud are the tones? Well, in this perfect room, with perfect speakers and perfect everything. Playing 20 Hz at 50 dB… This human with perfect hearing will barely perceive the 20 Hz… if at all… Keep this reference in mind. We’ll have to come back to it. Those are the famed Fletcher-Munson curves.

To make matter more complicated, it also happens that in most rooms, the best position for bass is not that for best soundstage, or the rest of the spectrum.It has been studied by people at Harman and by other independent audio scientist, namely Earl Geddes that the best bass in a room in various position is obtain with multiple subwoofers placed in certain positions. Harman preconizes some specific positions for the subwoofers, Geddes advocates a different approach, he calls it quasi-random with one subwoofer in a corner (let’s call it the main subwoofer, the most capable) and the others literally somewhere on the opposite wall and the third behind the listener. In the Geddes approach if the main speakers in this case your R11 are capable in the bass it makes the resulting bass response at the listening positions (plural) smoother and more linear.

The better subwoofers are in general more capable in the bass than most mains, even celebrated and/or expensive ones. A good $1000 subwoofer is quite capable to provide 20 Hz at 110 dB at 2 meters… Few mains are so capable, very few… Cite me two mains that are so capable ;) … Of course you will say that you never play this loud but remember the Fletcher Munson curves? 100 dB in the bass at 50 Hz is perceived to be less loud than 100 dB at 1000 Hz and few mains are by themselves so capable. @sweetchaos at a marvelous subwoofer comparison tool to guide you in the choice of subwoofers, it would be wise to use it.

Independent subwoofers afford you to place them where they provide the best bass, more extended and smooth bass at the listening positions? You place these where they play best, provide you with the best bass and place the mains where they play best.. no reason to compromise. On top o f that there is the subject of constructive inteference. The room play havoc on the bass. You have points in the room where the room adds bass while substracting at other point. Multiple subwoofers canhelp taming those variations.

The process of integration is not easy. Let’s be clear about it. It is however doable and there are methods to achieve it. None are slam-bang-you’re done! It takes days, even weeks to achieve. One thing to be sure in trying to integrate is the necessity of DSP aka Digital Signal Processor/ing and EQ. You will have to learn to measure and to interpret measurements. This will take time and effort

I have to cut it short . You need subwoofers but the integration is not an easy task. It takes time and efforts. It will however (almost a guarantee) provide the best bass you have ever heard, provided you use capable subs and you work on integration. People here will help if you need it. If you have more question. Ask. The level of knowledge from the people here is high.

Peace.
 
Last edited:

Rednaxela

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 30, 2022
Messages
2,135
Likes
2,765
Location
NL
But. Is the missing punch missing from the sub bass?
 

BrokenEnglishGuy

Major Contributor
Joined
Jul 19, 2020
Messages
1,936
Likes
1,158
You have to measure your in room bass.
For example i got a lot of bass from my R7s in my small room
 

Attachments

  • 1668292508240.png
    1668292508240.png
    284 KB · Views: 149
Top Bottom