Does R11 need dual subwoofer?

[Deleted member 48726]

He literally just said it is NOT possible to prove it never exists.

Then why the doubt and name calling?

 

[antcollinet]

Then why the doubt and name calling?

I've not seen name calling.

The doubt comes from you making un-evidenced assertions.

You are welcome to make tests and measurements to validate your opinion (only you can). But until you do, your statements are just anecdotes of little to no value for anyone else.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

I've not seen name calling.

The doubt comes from you making un-evidenced assertions.

You are welcome to make tests and measurements to validate your opinion (only you can). But until you do, your statements are just anecdotes of little to no value for anyone else.

I don't see the devaluation of multiple experiences is healthy but if you say so I'm willing to agree to disagree. I would like to get rid of the ridicule from people who doesn't share the same point of view though. It's not like it's claim of all the fine things cable risers bring.. (This is sarcasm)

A little mutual understanding would be appreciated. Especially on a topic which isn't fully documented.

 

[bodhi]

Then why the doubt and name calling?

I don't see any insults, yet. What I see is that you seem to get frustrated because we don't "value your experiences". This is common phenomenon nowadays in many other contexts as well. You are of course free to feel so, but the burden of proof has nothing to do with your feelings. It is also not an insult to say that your experience without any evidence does not have any value in facts based discussion. This statement has nothing to do with you as a person.

I also think that forcing people to have proof for their experiences is not ok in a lot of situations. But in this context, discussing audio science, it doesn't seem unreasonable to have people understand and agree how scientific method works.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

I don't see any insults, yet. What I see is that you seem to get frustrated because we don't "value your experiences". This is common phenomenon nowadays in many other contexts as well. You are of course free to feel so, but the burden of proof has nothing to do with your feelings. It is also not an insult to say that your experience without any evidence does not have any value in facts based discussion. This statement has nothing to do with you as a person.

I also think that forcing people to have proof for their experiences is not ok in a lot of situations. But in this context, discussing audio science, it doesn't seem unreasonable to have people understand and agree how scientific method works.

The wording was wrongly chosen by me. You should instead look at my post no 83.
I don't feel other than frustration due to lack of aknowledgment that maybe the small data set we have on the matter isn't enough to dismiss what people experience as mere psychoacoustics.

 

[antcollinet]

I don't see the devaluation of multiple experiences is healthy but if you say so I'm willing to agree to disagree. I would like to get rid of the ridicule from people who doesn't share the same point of view though. It's not like it's claim of all the fine things cable risers bring.. (This is sarcasm)

A little mutual understanding would be appreciated. Especially on a topic which isn't fully documented.

All of the following is written in the interest of mutual understanding:

Multiple experiences aren't any more valid (from a scientific point of view) as one experience. If you are prone to cognitive bias that causes you to incorrectly perceive changes after a period of time listening to a new speaker - that you attribute to break in - then it is likely that will happen time and again - not just once.

Just as I found my hearing changing while I thought it was my new speakers (evidence for this is I percieved a huge change in a separate sound system that had been in use for 18 months prior - see my link upthread), so the same could be happening to you.

Of course - none of us knows if that is the case. You don't know if that is the case (though you would probably deny this). But the only way to find out is to validate it through valid tests and measurements. Unfortunately blind testing of break in isn't really viable, so the only validation we can do is before/after measurements.

Before after measurments have been done on some speakers, and found only minor - probably inaudible - changes. Of course, those measurements don't mean your speakers aren't changing.

But your perception also doesn't mean they are.

So the only way to have actually valid data is for your speakers to be measured before and after "break in". Of course - it is too late for that for any speakers you've already used for a significant time. Perhaps next time you build a new sub you could consider measuring it: You might learn something new.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

All of the following is written in the interest of mutual understanding:

Multiple experiences aren't any more valid (from a scientific point of view) as one experience. If you are prone to cognitive bias that causes you to incorrectly perceive changes after a period of time listening to a new speaker - that you attribute to break in - then it is likely that will happen time and again - not just once.

Just as I found my hearing changing while I thought it was my new speakers (evidence for this is I percieved a huge change in a separate sound system that had been in use for 18 months prior - see my link upthread), so the same could be happening to you.

Of course - none of us knows if that is the case. You don't know if that is the case (though you would probably deny this). But the only way to find out is to validate it through valid tests and measurements. Unfortunately blind testing of break in isn't really viable, so the only validation we can do is before/after measurements.

Before after measurments have been done on some speakers, and found only minor - probably inaudible - changes. Of course, those measurements don't mean your speakers aren't changing.

But your perception also doesn't mean they are.

So the only way to have actually valid data is for your speakers to be measured before and after "break in". Of course - it is too late for that for any speakers you've already used for a significant time. Perhaps next time you build a new sub you could consider measureing it: You might learn something new.

So it actually is possible to see a somewhat nuanced response in this thread. Refreshing. Thank you.

 

[simplywyn]

Ok, final verdit - yes the R11 DEFINITELY need subwoofer. The difference is quite huge, basically the weight of large objects can be felt vs just using r11 alone.

How I tested:

I played several songs and the same movie clip (the Two Tower, the wings fluttering from the witch king)

With Subwoofers on:
1. It's not immediately noticeable, but with subwoofers on, there is weight, massive massive unspoken weight to anything massive. Wings sound massive, soundstage is huge (finally realized what soundstage meant).
2. I've tuned the subwoofers to be not that noticeable but they give a huge smoothness to the speaker, not sure how to describe it but without the subwoofers on, the speakers sound a bit dry and lacking in weight and space.

With Subwoofers off:
1. R11's sound very dry, or coarse, the subwoofers really make the sound feel more natural and when needed, the bass makes objects feel like they have weight.
2. Without the Kf92's there's a completely missing aspect of music. It's interesting once the ears get used to kf92 they can really detect the missing aspects, rather than the additional (when I added them, I didn't notice much)

 

[exm]

I have gone through a Kef journey, and I find the R11s to be lacking in deep bass also. The R900s (their predecessors) are bass superior with their 2x8" woofers. So a subwoofer definitely makes sense.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Ok, final verdit - yes the R11 DEFINITELY need subwoofer. The difference is quite huge, basically the weight of large objects can be felt vs just using r11 alone.

How I tested:

I played several songs and the same movie clip (the Two Tower, the wings fluttering from the witch king)

With Subwoofers on:
1. It's not immediately noticeable, but with subwoofers on, there is weight, massive massive unspoken weight to anything massive. Wings sound massive, soundstage is huge (finally realized what soundstage meant).
2. I've tuned the subwoofers to be not that noticeable but they give a huge smoothness to the speaker, not sure how to describe it but without the subwoofers on, the speakers sound a bit dry and lacking in weight and space.

With Subwoofers off:
1. R11's sound very dry, or coarse, the subwoofers really make the sound feel more natural and when needed, the bass makes objects feel like they have weight.
2. Without the Kf92's there's a completely missing aspect of music. It's interesting once the ears get used to kf92 they can really detect the missing aspects, rather than the additional (when I added them, I didn't notice much)

"
But you only need the light when it's burning low
Only miss the sun when it starts to snow
Only know you love her when you let her go

"

 

[Deleted member 48726]

On another subject reg. break in in this thread; I was looking at T&S data on a SB Acoustics driver and found this little footnote:

6″ SB17MFC35-4 / Polypropylene - Sbacoustics

Vented cast aluminum chassis for optimum strength and low compression, mineral filled PP-cone made in-house.

sbacoustics.com

 

[thewas]

On another subject reg. break in in this thread; I was looking at T&S data on a SB Acoustics driver and found this little footnote:


View attachment 267645

6″ SB17MFC35-4 / Polypropylene - Sbacoustics

Vented cast aluminum chassis for optimum strength and low compression, mineral filled PP-cone made in-house.

sbacoustics.com

It is known that the stiffness of mainly the spider of a woofer changes in the first oscillations which has an influence on the T/S parameters. Some changes are even partially reversible, meaning that the happen everytime after some relaxation.

 

[soundofsilence]

Can anyone recommend subs to go with R11s? I have just bought an r6 meta and was blown away so now building a full system around them, thanks!