Does R11 need dual subwoofer?

[antcollinet]

Facts please, it is not a matter of opinion or finding a consensus. You can’t rely on your hearing with such things you have to measure and REW is easy and cheap to do.

However that doesn’t mean that something doesn’t gets broken and needs fixing or replacement.

Besides you will never find the optimum placement of sub, speakers and xover for your particular room without measuring. Simply too many possible combinations. And why save 100 bucks when you spent some 5000 on the KF92s or so alone.

Here is a post detailing my experiance of "speaker break in". from 1 1/2 years ago. As of now, I don't believe the speakers changed at all. You need to read to the end to understand why

(oh, and I have a better understanding of how expectation bias/confirmation bias works now )

Do Audio Speakers Break-in?

I sooo wish I had kept all the notes from college days when we did a bunch of experiments including on speaker break-in. Bottom line is it was easily measurable, practically never audible, and generally completed within seconds or minutes with a tail that might last for hours but wasn't worth...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Here is a post detailing my experiance of "speaker break in". from 1 1/2 years ago. As of now, I don't believe the speakers changed at all. You need to read to the end to understand why

(oh, and I have a better understanding of how expectation bias/confirmation bias works how )

Do Audio Speakers Break-in?

I sooo wish I had kept all the notes from college days when we did a bunch of experiments including on speaker break-in. Bottom line is it was easily measurable, practically never audible, and generally completed within seconds or minutes with a tail that might last for hours but wasn't worth...

audiosciencereview.com

Here is a post detailing my experiance of "speaker break in". from 1 1/2 years ago. As of now, I don't believe the speakers changed at all. You need to read to the end to understand why

(oh, and I have a better understanding of how expectation bias/confirmation bias works now )

Do Audio Speakers Break-in?

I sooo wish I had kept all the notes from college days when we did a bunch of experiments including on speaker break-in. Bottom line is it was easily measurable, practically never audible, and generally completed within seconds or minutes with a tail that might last for hours but wasn't worth...

audiosciencereview.com

That’s also my observation as written further up. My two KF92s didn’t change a bit in two years based on the REW measures and I can’t claim that my hearing is better than what REW can capture.

The “breakin” myth has been debunked many times over. Mostly unsupported stories and used by dealers for you to keep the expensive stuff you just bought.

Amir measured the KH80 three times and was able to show that the temp difference in his garage vs. a regular room would slightly influence the performance. But did he hear it - no, it is just too small. Plus a temp adjustment to a room (a few hours) is not what the usual breakin crowd claims. Besides for the temp to adjust one doesn’t have to play it either.

Edit. Don’t ask my why your post is quoted twice. Can’t fix it.

 

[Digital_Thor]

To the original question - yes! In my opinion, all speakers need subwoofers - 2-4 that is.

As a bare minimum, you need EQ(room EQ) for all woofers in all rooms in all speakers - at the listening position.

Subwoofers equalize out the response in unison with the mains, so that you get a much more even response all over the room - and in general - just much much better bass is obtainable as a result.

But there's a but... a big but. It has to be done right - which can be tricky. I did it with 3 friends yesterday on a big system. Two big mains with ribbon tweeter and double 12" midwoofers. Then we added 2 x 15" subs and 2 x 12" subs. Letting the mains run down freely - no highpass, since filter slopes has phase switching, which make integration way more tricky - and the subwoofer overlap with different crossovers and delay. Then when there is almost not a single suckout anywhere.... you EQ down all the extra gain and the main room resonance. Voila.... smooth even bass all over and lots of headroom

But - and remember the but. It can take some fiddling... but it can be done. It also worked wonders on the Magico Q7 with 4 subwooferes... that I helped dial in 3 weeks ago

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Here is a post detailing my experiance of "speaker break in". from 1 1/2 years ago. As of now, I don't believe the speakers changed at all. You need to read to the end to understand why

(oh, and I have a better understanding of how expectation bias/confirmation bias works now )

Do Audio Speakers Break-in?

I sooo wish I had kept all the notes from college days when we did a bunch of experiments including on speaker break-in. Bottom line is it was easily measurable, practically never audible, and generally completed within seconds or minutes with a tail that might last for hours but wasn't worth...

audiosciencereview.com

Confirmation bias is real.

I doubt that all experiences can be dismissed as confirmation bias though. I'm pretty sure not every manufacturer uses same materials and / or pre-condition spiders and surrounds before shipping. And if this is true then break in is also a very plausible phenomenon.

When I read the different posts and measurements on the subject I think to myself that too many people sees one measurement and then thats the one and only truth. I think that is a bit narrow minded to say that if these two set of measurements on these particular speakers doesn't show audible signs of break in, then all speakers from all manufacturers doesn't. It's a bit ballsy from a statistically point of view..

 

[simplywyn]

I have a set of SVS SB1000's that I swear broke in. When I first plugged them in, there was literally no bass coming out of it. I thought I was fooled. Even feeling the plastic it felt harder.

After playing with it for a while, the surrounding plastic (rubber type material) felt much more malleable, and the bass was way more obvious.

I was literally on the verge of returning these useless subwoofers until... I got used to them? That doesn't make sense And you're telling me that I'm the one breaking them in?? The same has happened to every subwoofer I've bought. And exactly the same happened with the KF92's.

I've never felt breakin on headphones or speakers if that's what you're talking about, but with subwoofer, the effect is very obvious to me.

I'm not sure if the measurements are missing something or the other, but what I'm feeling is totally fake? And ONLY at subwoofers? That's something I don't believe.

I've literally bought headphones and "broken them in" and heard no difference, same with speakers. I've "broken in" speakers and again, zero difference.

The break in period doesn't last too long btw, it's like 10hrs or less.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Confirmation bias is real.

I doubt that all experiences can be dismissed as confirmation bias though. I'm pretty sure not every manufacturer uses same materials and / or pre-condition spiders and surrounds before shipping. And if this is true then break in is also a very plausible phenomenon.

When I read the different posts and measurements on the subject I think to myself that too many people sees one measurement and then thats the one and only truth. I think that is a bit narrow minded to say that if these two set of measurements on these particular speakers doesn't show audible signs of break in, then all speakers from all manufacturers doesn't. It's a bit ballsy from a statistically point of view..

Of course. Just because my two KF92s did not change one can never generalize from that without further data.

However that breakin phenomenon has hardly ever been proven elsewhere, if ever at all, therefore I would like to see evidence that in one particular case it is indeed present.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

I have a set of SVS SB1000's that I swear broke in. When I first plugged them in, there was literally no bass coming out of it. I thought I was fooled. Even feeling the plastic it felt harder.

After playing with it for a while, the surrounding plastic (rubber type material) felt much more malleable, and the bass was way more obvious.

I was literally on the verge of returning these useless subwoofers until... I got used to them? That doesn't make sense And you're telling me that I'm the one breaking them in?? The same has happened to every subwoofer I've bought. And exactly the same happened with the KF92's.

I've never felt breakin on headphones or speakers if that's what you're talking about, but with subwoofer, the effect is very obvious to me.

I'm not sure if the measurements are missing something or the other, but what I'm feeling is totally fake? And ONLY at subwoofers? That's something I don't believe.

I've literally bought headphones and "broken them in" and heard no difference, same with speakers. I've "broken in" speakers and again, zero difference.

The break in period doesn't last too long btw, it's like 10hrs or less.

The thread @tonycollinet linked explains it all. Plenty of other people and experts contributed. No need to do it all over again.

 

[simplywyn]

The thread @tonycollinet linked explains it all. Plenty of other people and experts contributed. No need to do it all over again.

This makes sense. I've felt the same with my car - I thought I knew when it was time to change the oil. So whenever I "felt" my car needing oil change, I would go get the oil changed (usually at around the 7000km mark).

However, one day, my dad decided to change my oil without my knowledge and didn't tell me. I still had the same "feeling" that I needed to get the oil changed. And was about to take the car into get an oil change before he stopped me and said he already did it.

That was when I started trusting nothing.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

I have a set of SVS SB1000's that I swear broke in. When I first plugged them in, there was literally no bass coming out of it. I thought I was fooled. Even feeling the plastic it felt harder.

After playing with it for a while, the surrounding plastic (rubber type material) felt much more malleable, and the bass was way more obvious.

I was literally on the verge of returning these useless subwoofers until... I got used to them? That doesn't make sense And you're telling me that I'm the one breaking them in?? The same has happened to every subwoofer I've bought. And exactly the same happened with the KF92's.

I've never felt breakin on headphones or speakers if that's what you're talking about, but with subwoofer, the effect is very obvious to me.

I'm not sure if the measurements are missing something or the other, but what I'm feeling is totally fake? And ONLY at subwoofers? That's something I don't believe.

I've literally bought headphones and "broken them in" and heard no difference, same with speakers. I've "broken in" speakers and again, zero difference.

The break in period doesn't last too long btw, it's like 10hrs or less.

Subwoofers have large drivers with heavy duty spiders and thick surrounds so in the mechanical sense it is logical to be more prone to break in as the driver must move further than mids and highs. I don't doubt your experience. I have tried it myself when I built subs for cars many moons ago. They are much worse IR to heavy thick butyle rubber surrounds and leather thick spiders. They need some persuation when they are fresh out of the box.

Oh, and on cold winter days they do not perform the same as when warm. That's not an issue in home audio luckily.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Of course. Just because my two KF92s did not change one can never generalize from that without further data.

However that breakin phenomenon has hardly ever been proven elsewhere, if ever at all, therefore I would like to see evidence that in one particular case it is indeed present.

It sure does look like generalization to me, to dismiss other peoples experiences based on a very few data.

I once read a thread where this guy measures a drivers parameters new, 1 hr. in and 7 hrs. in. Many of the parameters changed a considerable percentage. I will try to find the thread some day soon.

 

[bodhi]

It sure does look like generalization to me, to dismiss other peoples experiences based on a very few data.

I once read a thread where this guy measures a drivers parameters new, 1 hr. in and 7 hrs. in. Many of the parameters changed a considerable percentage. I will try to find the thread some day soon.

What are you even talking about? Isn't the subject of breaking in speakers been discussed and beaten to death over the years? And that the accepted opinion is that it's mostly our brains breaking in.

And now we have someone claiming that not one but several subwoofers from two different manufacturers had very major break in effect of going from "almost no bass" to great. And we have now two owners of the same subwoofers having had absolutely no break in effect . And probably hundreds of more who have had no noticeable break in effect from any speakers, ever.

And you think that from these data points it's "generalization" to have doubts?

 

[MAB]

What are you even talking about? Isn't the subject of breaking in speakers been discussed and beaten to death over the years? And that the accepted opinion is that it's mostly our brains breaking in.

And now we have someone claiming that not one but several subwoofers from two different manufacturers had very major break in effect of going from "almost no bass" to great. And we have now two owners of the same subwoofers having had absolutely no break in effect . And probably hundreds of more who have had no noticeable break in effect from any speakers, ever.

And you think that from these data points it's "generalization" to have doubts?

Yeah, speakers just don't break in the way people are sayin'.

Speaker Break In: Fact or Fiction?

Driver "break in", "burn in" or "run in" is a topic that's been debated in various forums for years. This topic continues to ignite occasional flame wars, fueled by the contributions of both

www.audioholics.com

It's just not audible.

 

[simplywyn]

You realize the thread completely contradicts your view. Oh well never too late to get convinced and to change your mind - respect really.

I'm appreciate a good perspective. I don't like this polarization in society and just trying to find the truth. What I experience, I believe is true, and real. However, how we explain the experiences may differ.

That thread makes sense, as I've experienced the same bias elsewhere.

It is more data to my knowledge point, maybe subwoofer breakin will be proven using material science, and that measurements alone isn't good enough. Who knows, but I also agree that psycho acoustics plays a huge deal on how we hear music.

Half the time I'm not even convinced my expensive set of speakers are even good. My wife says the R11's are too sharp and tinny, but after a while she can't stand the Homepod as dull and muddy. But that's her preferred speaker as it's simple to use.. so I just bought her another homepod to create a stereo.

There's a combination of purchase bias going on here as well. I've spent almost $20,000 on my speakers, so they MUST sound better than someone with a $499 homepod right? RIGHT?

 

[HarmonicTHD]

I'm appreciate a good perspective. I don't like this polarization in society and just trying to find the truth. What I experience, I believe is true, and real. However, how we explain the experiences may differ.

That thread makes sense, as I've experienced the same bias elsewhere.

It is more data to my knowledge point, maybe subwoofer breakin will be proven using material science, and that measurements alone isn't good enough. Who knows, but I also agree that psycho acoustics plays a huge deal on how we hear music.

Half the time I'm not even convinced my expensive set of speakers are even good. My wife says the R11's are too sharp and tinny, but after a while she can't stand the Homepod as dull and muddy. But that's her preferred speaker as it's simple to use.. so I just bought her another homepod to create a stereo.

There's a combination of purchase bias going on here as well. I've spent almost $20,000 on my speakers, so they MUST sound better than someone with a $499 homepod right? RIGHT?

I thought you were serious for a minute in your last response.

As I said the linked thread gives a perfect explanation which has been much more proven than your unproven claim. And as your claim is unlikely one would like to see factual evidence and if the facts say it is correct what you say I am the last one not to concede.

So far in the past 10 plus years I am simply not aware of anyone and even there is one the majority of tests says otherwise. It seems but it is not about polarization - simple facts or none.

 

[bodhi]

I'm appreciate a good perspective. I don't like this polarization in society and just trying to find the truth. What I experience, I believe is true, and real.

The idea that what one experiences is true and real is not true though. And it has been proven times and times again in many other contexts than audio reproduction. Our senses are not so great instruments for measuring many things, our memory is not good in storing sensory information and on top of that our brains play so many different games that blindly trusting our experiences to be accurate representation of truth is intellectually dishonest.

But you are right in that most people in today's society don't accept what I wrote before and that is a cause for a lot of problems.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

I thought you were serious for a minute in your last response.

As I said the linked thread gives a perfect explanation which has been much more proven than your unproven claim. And as your claim is unlikely one would like to see factual evidence and if the facts say it is correct what you say I am the last one not to concede.

So far in the past 10 plus years I am simply not aware of anyone and even there is one the majority of tests says otherwise. It seems but it is not about polarization - simple facts or none.

Do you recognise that there are many thousands of different speakers, drivers of different materials etc. out there. And you base your belief on what, a handful of tests?
Do you not recognise the enormous possibility that many speakers (sub, bass drivers) do change characteristics after being driven xx hrs?

The so called "facts" you are using does not seem so factual to me. It just seems like the tested speakers you base it off of haven't shown signs of changing

 

[simplywyn]

The idea that what one experiences is true and real is not true though. And it has been proven times and times again in many other contexts than audio reproduction. Our senses are not so great instruments for measuring many things, our memory is not good in storing sensory information and on top of that our brains play so many different games that blindly trusting our experiences to be accurate representation of truth is intellectually dishonest.

But you are right in that most people in today's society don't accept what I wrote before and that is a cause for a lot of problems.

Here's what might be happening:
1. When I buy a speaker, it's often cold outside, or it's been sitting in a cold warehouse for months
2. Bringing it home, it's never been turned on the electronics are cold, everything is cold or never been turned on. I'm talking about 0 degrees or less in storage.
3. Electronics burnin is absolutely real (I'm an EE) and heat and repeated usage absolutely does change things in the initial run
4. Combine the warming up of the box, warming up of the electronics, warming up of the rubber that's been cold and never moved

Once it's been running a few hours in my house for a few days, everything is warmed to room temperature, the rubber is now at room temperature (this is probably a MAJOR cause of the burn-in effect, cold rubber will act as a dampener as it isn't as elastic), the electronics have been fully running and the capacitors are filled to the brim and generating heat (so higher than room temperature).

I think people forget these facts, and that is most LIKELY the reason why I "hear" burn in, on subwoofers specifically, simply because the they have the most rubber and need the most power and temperature plays the biggest difference.

Throw in purchase bias, and confirmation bias and expectation bias, you have a stronger burn in effect than reality.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Here is the guy that tested TS parameters new and after use on a 7" paper woofer -->

TS Parameter changes during break-in - Techtalk Speaker Building, Audio, Video Discussion Forum

So I have no doubt this topic has been discussed many times here but given I am about to run this comparison for myself thought I would share! Re: How does a driver measure vs manufacturer specs and what effect does "break-in" have? Grabbed myself a fresh set of drivers for my current build...

techtalk.parts-express.com

 

[Deleted member 48726]

What are you even talking about? Isn't the subject of breaking in speakers been discussed and beaten to death over the years? And that the accepted opinion is that it's mostly our brains breaking in.

And now we have someone claiming that not one but several subwoofers from two different manufacturers had very major break in effect of going from "almost no bass" to great. And we have now two owners of the same subwoofers having had absolutely no break in effect . And probably hundreds of more who have had no noticeable break in effect from any speakers, ever.

And you think that from these data points it's "generalization" to have doubts?

Yeah, I do.

You have group 1. Here is your five or ten tested products.
Group 2. All other products on the market.

You say group 1 is fact and right.

Then along comes one with a different experience. But he has a product which is not from group 1 but one of the 1 mil. other products on the market in group 2.
-Can you say with any credibility what so ever that this person is wrong?

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Do you recognise that there are many thousands of different speakers, drivers of different materials etc. out there. And you base your belief on what, a handful of tests?
Do you not recognise the enormous possibility that many speakers (sub, bass drivers) do change characteristics after being driven xx hrs?

The so called "facts" you are using does not seem so factual to me. It just seems like the tested speakers you base it off of haven't shown signs of changing

What is so hard to understand about this sentence in my previous post “Of course. Just because my two KF92s did not change one can never generalize from that without further data.”