Do Audio Speakers Break-in?

[NTK]

Humidity also affects the speed of sound as a first-order effect IIRC but is rarely mentioned...

Apparently the effect of humidity is not very high at room temperature, and is mostly related to the air density change due to the higher proportion of water in the air as humidity goes up (per Wikipedia).

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/51873087_High_Accuracy_Acoustic_Relative_Humidity_Measurement_in_Duct_Flow_with_Air

 

[DonH56]

Apparently the effect of humidity is not very high at room temperature, and is mostly related to the air density change due to the higher proportion of water in the air as humidity goes up (per Wikipedia).

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/51873087_High_Accuracy_Acoustic_Relative_Humidity_Measurement_in_Duct_Flow_with_Air

View attachment 275823

OK, thanks, I must have had environmental tests in mind. I'll dig up my acoustics book at some point and check the equations again, don't care enough to do it now and need to practice myself for church stuff the next couple of weeks.

Either way, not sure what the speed of sound or modern vs. old tuning pitch has to do with speaker break-in...

 

[Deleted member 48726]

To sum up, I think it's safe to state that break in exists audibly and can be measured on certain drivers. This is documented and witnessed and experienced by many incl. my self. Links to various of these sources is provided throughout the thread.

Some haven't experienced it ever and says it doesn't exist. Fair. Wrong but fair. Data provided says it's entirely possible.
If someone should be of the opinion that the data provided can be dismissed they should provide proof of why.

 

[soundtrane]

Running in an engine i can understand... piston rings, cylinders etc... my Royal Enfield Bullet Thunderbird 500 was to be run in for a 1000 km with speeds not exceeding 50 kmph. but a speaker?

 

[MAB]

To sum up, I think it's safe to state that break in exists audibly and can be measured on certain drivers. This is documented and witnessed and experienced by many incl. my self. Links to various of these sources is provided throughout the thread.

Some haven't experienced it ever and says it doesn't exist. Fair. Wrong but fair. Data provided says it's entirely possible.
If someone should be of the opinion that the data provided can be dismissed they should provide proof of why.

It's safe to say that this thread started out saying the opposite.
I did two experiments, showing that the changes are tiny, less than the changes in room temp.
Two earlier measurements were shown in this thread.
Numerous links to Toole, Olive, etc. showing that the small changes in speaker parameters lead to negligible and inaudible changes.
You did link GR Research if I recall. That doesn't count. I shouldn't have to say that.
Numerous manufacturers spec sheets were referenced, mixed bag. Also not an actual measurement of this driver breakin theory.
References to 3dB and even larger changes were made, this is quite frankly a large amount of energy to be dissipated by stiff rubber and lacquer on bits and pieces of the suspension.
Using ears to say you thought the bass got louder or better also doesn't count. I installed too many car stereos, measured too many drivers to fall for the driver breakin without hard proof to the opposite. Sorry.

No, it isn't safe to say that it is an audible thing. I can't even measure it, while I can certainly measure lots of other macroscopic parameters, like really small changes in air temperature and driver temperature, and even a light breeze blowing over the driver. I showed the data. Please, if you have actual measurements from a well thought out and temperature controlled experiment, please show them, and show that they lead to audible changes.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Running in an engine i can understand... piston rings, cylinders etc... my Royal Enfield Bullet Thunderbird 500 was to be run in for a 1000 km with speeds not exceeding 50 kmph. but a speaker?

Well. If you haven't already you should read the thread.
Short answer is that a driver is a electro mechanical device that moves and has suspension. Logic dictates that it then has compliant specifications.
But look at tests proving this in the thread.

 

[YSC]

Well. If you haven't already you should read the thread.
Short answer is that a driver is a electro mechanical device that moves and has suspension. Logic dictates that it then has compliant specifications.
But look at tests proving this in the thread.

after reading the whole thread there don't seems to be any real proof... measuring two different drivers don't count, as unit variation could easily surpass that, individual driver spec sheet only shows the driver itself don't show much either as it's a claim, which failed to show solid evidence for it being audible, what I saw in this thread is a few more controlled test don't show anything changes meangingfully and audiable as in a few of the linked researches from Olive, Toole etc. showed that once inside a cabinet, those driver "breaking in" don't show anything audiable and at most really minor changes with sensitive mic.

Also as any electro mechanical device the change in temperature and moisture affect it way more than any run in do, for cars the engine run in is basically nothing to do with it's power output, weather changes that much more than the running in, what the car engine run in do is to smoothen the scratchy bits inside the engine and flush it away, so it don't kill itself when pushed hard.

 

[soundtrane]

Well. If you haven't already you should read the thread.
Short answer is that a driver is a electro mechanical device that moves and has suspension. Logic dictates that it then has compliant specifications.
But look at tests proving this in the thread.

I have read the thread.

 

[teashea]

To sum up, I think it's safe to state that break in exists audibly and can be measured on certain drivers. This is documented and witnessed and experienced by many incl. my self. Links to various of these sources is provided throughout the thread.

Some haven't experienced it ever and says it doesn't exist. Fair. Wrong but fair. Data provided says it's entirely possible.
If someone should be of the opinion that the data provided can be dismissed they should provide proof of why.

There is no valid evidence that breakin significantly or measurably affects speaker performance. Subjective views are just that - subjective and not reliable.

 

[tw 2022]

There is no valid evidence that breakin significantly or measurably affects speaker performance. Subjective views are just that - subjective and not reliable.

That's been my experience as well... I do however allow for the possibility that subjective opinion is fact and science is merely a distraction...

 

[MAB]

Well. If you haven't already you should read the thread.

You keep suggesting that people haven't read the thread. But you never point out any part of the thread that supports your assertion that speakers have significant changes in performance after break-in. I am assuming that your oblique reference to reading the thread means you think there is evidence of speaker break-in. Let's test that. I re-read the thread to see if I missed something...

Link	Description	Post number	Measurement?
Do Audio Speakers Break-in? There are a lot of "everybody knows" type of rules in audio with one of them being that audio gear in general, and speakers in the specific, benefit from "break-in." That is, their performance improves after some time. This is mostly touted by audiophiles but manufacturers also fuel this... www.audiosciencereview.com	OP Amir - no change after break-in	1	measurements
Do Audio Speakers Break-in? There are a lot of "everybody knows" type of rules in audio with one of them being that audio gear in general, and speakers in the specific, benefit from "break-in." That is, their performance improves after some time. This is mostly touted by audiophiles but manufacturers also fuel this... www.audiosciencereview.com	GR Research - ridiculous	5	Manufacturer anecdote
Do Audio Speakers Break-in? There are a lot of "everybody knows" type of rules in audio with one of them being that audio gear in general, and speakers in the specific, benefit from "break-in." That is, their performance improves after some time. This is mostly touted by audiophiles but manufacturers also fuel this... www.audiosciencereview.com	solderdude - no change after break-in, doesn't provide data but has the largest collection of headphone tests I have seen, is incredibly helpful and I trust. If you don't you don't that's your thing...	6	no measured changes, admits hasn't measured every headphone on the planet (seems to me like he did indeed miss a few!)
Do Audio Speakers Break-in? There are a lot of "everybody knows" type of rules in audio with one of them being that audio gear in general, and speakers in the specific, benefit from "break-in." That is, their performance improves after some time. This is mostly touted by audiophiles but manufacturers also fuel this... www.audiosciencereview.com	AN-E Brochure - ridiculous	9	Manufacturer anecdote
Do Audio Speakers Break-in? There are a lot of "everybody knows" type of rules in audio with one of them being that audio gear in general, and speakers in the specific, benefit from "break-in." That is, their performance improves after some time. This is mostly touted by audiophiles but manufacturers also fuel this... www.audiosciencereview.com	Dalifazon	12	Manufacturer anecdote
Do Audio Speakers Break-in? So we should be able to contact the company to tell us where they got the 100 hour number from? I mean why is it not 87 hours? Or 13 hours? Why 100? If they have not run any tests to determine that, well, what they say is not worth anything. Perhaps a better question would be, at least for... www.audiosciencereview.com	Dense (manufacturer) claims that if you stress to death (96 hours or more at max power) you will see a change in the driver, but that it will be worn out at that point…	29​	Not about break-in, this is wear-out! Please see the Klippel post later...
Do Audio Speakers Break-in? This completely mirrors research performed at Harman where they tested a new woofer and a "broken-in" one in a real speaker. While physical changes are occurring in the driver, they are at such low level that there is no hope of attaching them to audibility. Speaker break-in is very real and... www.audiosciencereview.com	CTRL - no change after break-in	61	measurements
Do Audio Speakers Break-in? This completely mirrors research performed at Harman where they tested a new woofer and a "broken-in" one in a real speaker. While physical changes are occurring in the driver, they are at such low level that there is no hope of attaching them to audibility. Speaker break-in is very real and... www.audiosciencereview.com	Amir got it wrong, the speakers didn't break in, the cables are what was breaking in. MoonAudio is referenced, I love it.	69	I love this ironic joke
Do Audio Speakers Break-in? One would give more credence to break-in being meaningful if there were common cases of components sounding worse after extended use. But every single one of the processes involved seems to only make things sound better.. I have read reports of old electrostatic panels losing film rigidity over... www.audiosciencereview.com	Brand new and one year old 18" subs, 0.1dB in output between the two units - no change within speaker to speaker matching.	98	measurements
Do Audio Speakers Break-in? I’ve had some Martin Logan’s that had no treble fresh out of the box; perhaps the panel needed to be fully charged? I confirmed it with in room measurement. Out of curiosity, how long did it take for the treble to normalize (I assume it did and it was measurable)? I think some break-in is... www.audiosciencereview.com	Reference to Toole, tiny changes were measured post break-in, these changes were inaudible. Multiple drivers and test subjects. Brings up the age-old question, why do manufacturers always say the sound gets 'better'? Associates this behavior with Marketing.	107	measurements
Do Audio Speakers Break-in? This guy is a loudspeaker design legend and begs to differ. http://www.gr-research.com/burnin.htm Danny is a solid designer, but he buys into a lot of audiophool b00|$hit, or perhaps pretends to for marketing reasons -- e.g. he swears his "tube connectors" will make even a cheap bookshelf... www.audiosciencereview.com	Not data, but the behavioral phenomena behind kuxury purchases is somewhat interesting in light the eternal question, "why do we lead ourselves to believe our fancy posessions have special properties?"	137	Good read.
Do Audio Speakers Break-in? The guys at Matrix Hi-Fi did a piece on this subject years ago: Speakers Burn In: What manufacturers say... Having read an article published by Mr. Bruce Coppola, where speaker burn in was the subject, we were surprised to read on one sentence that speaker units are delivered already burned... www.audiosciencereview.com	Various manufaturer's response.	141	anecdotes from manufacturers, interesting that JBL and ATC essentially say "our speakers don't change...
Do Audio Speakers Break-in? The guys at Matrix Hi-Fi did a piece on this subject years ago: Speakers Burn In: What manufacturers say... Having read an article published by Mr. Bruce Coppola, where speaker burn in was the subject, we were surprised to read on one sentence that speaker units are delivered already burned... www.audiosciencereview.com	CTRL more measurements - negligible change	144	measurements
Do Audio Speakers Break-in? The guys at Matrix Hi-Fi did a piece on this subject years ago: Speakers Burn In: What manufacturers say... Having read an article published by Mr. Bruce Coppola, where speaker burn in was the subject, we were surprised to read on one sentence that speaker units are delivered already burned... www.audiosciencereview.com	Someone with no measurements and no expertise challenges someone with expertise and data.	153	no measurements, just a great response to a logical fallacy.
Do Audio Speakers Break-in? The only real proof is personal experience. Are you a solipsist? www.audiosciencereview.com	Post from Amir on Klippel's speaker-aging measurement system. This is for determining a speaker's time to fail. It involves high-power tests under nominal and accelerated aging conditions. The goal is to calculate time to wear-out, typically using Weibull analysis. This is important and should be a bit of a full stop. At 100 hours of full power operation, the speaker is measurably worn out. This isn't break-in, this is large portion of the useful life of the driver is gone. People all over the web in pursuit of breaking their drivers in, are instead wearing them out.	180	measurement company

OK, so stop and take this in. Klippel says running a speaker at it's maximum rating is wear-out stress (no duh). You can see that this type of stress will begin to actively wear out the speaker in just a few hours entering the wear-out region of the life curve around 100 hours. (You may wonder why I ran my break-in tests at 90% max, I am purposely avoiding the wear-out stress Klippel is talking about!!!) (You may also wonder why I used a mic for my tweeter break in test - I wanted to capture the tweeter's Harmonic Distortion spectrum using FFT... Since you were just asking about FFT... I used the onset of distortion to determine when the tweeter was driven tweeter past it's linear capability so I would avoid all the amateurs on youtube who blow up their drivers instead of break them in... If you read Pioneer's spec on speaker durability and reliability test, they also use the 100 hour mark as onset of wear-out for full-power 100% duty cycle operation. It's so interesting that all these online Break-In gurus don't realize they are actually beating the life out of their drivers.

I got tired of documenting the post by post drama... After that, more anecdotes follow with only one measurement that actually claims to show a potentially audible change. But in the video the youtuber drives the speaker to what he calls "full power", and I watch the speaker overdriven so hard the cone looks like a Pringle. I have no idea if the speaker was new when he started abusing it (he didn't even mention that), and I have no idea if he let it cool down after the abuse, but the type of excursion more likely caused the driver to be worn out, not broken in. The response change was so dramatic, way outside of anything I have ever measured, the speaker was still hot or worn out or both.

But look at tests proving this in the thread.

As summarized above, no. Please post the links you seem to claim prove. Nobody but you seems to be able to find them. In fact, tests, industry experts, the measurements I posted, all say exactly opposite. The thing that irritates me is people are accidentally stressing the crap out of their drivers chasing this Break-in thing. I left the last forum I was on when it was overwhelmed with Break-In gurus who demanded that you shouldn't listen to your system until it has bedded in, and that if not bedded in properly it will never attain it's max potential, specifying high power tone bursts, and other magical mystical. This is wasteful on so many levels. Your break-in anecdotes are completely unsupported. I posted two tests, one just to show you the effect of Temperature and even wind from an air vent across the room.

None of people's postings here seem to have an affect on you. My anecdote, with data... I ran the install bay at the top car stereo shop in Central Valley CA (or I like to think top shop...) My crew measured every driver before going into a car, and before pulling, this saves so much time confusion. We did impedance seeps to check for voice coil rub, etc. JBL was the most consistent back then, and a JBL measured the same fresh out of the box as it did after use, unless the customer blew the driver. Same for all the gear we installed. I couldn't have run a quality shop with the clientele we had if drivers changed by multiple dB post install. And believe me, if we were seeing things actually change, we would have added break in to the pre-install procedure.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

There is no valid evidence that breakin significantly or measurably affects speaker performance. Subjective views are just that - subjective and not reliable.

There is evidence of driver break in in this thread that suggests it's both audible and able to measure. That's a fact.
If you deem this evidence false you should prove why it's wrong data.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

That's been my experience as well... I do however allow for the possibility that subjective opinion is fact and science is merely a distraction...

If you like science you should look at the evidence that driver break in is real and nlt just rely on your experience. If science is what you want.
Science is mostly used as word in a provocative way to differing viewpoints in here though. It has also dawned on me that most are just regurgitating information they have without actually knowing or actual experience. Like copy pasting a Google search result.

Then when you, "a scientist", see an opinion that's not aligning with the majority in the "science circles" it's easy to just find a few things with a test "it's not peer reviewed ergo it's false" and then demand a test in a lab with representatives from four continents while filmed with 16 cameras.

Me and others have supplied both proof, evidence and data that shows driver break in is real. These suggests that it's possible to be audible in speakers in some cases.

Give me a break using "in the name of science" if you actually isn't able to move your own opinion in the face of proof.

 

[YSC]

If you like science you should look at the evidence that driver break in is real and nlt just rely on your experience. If science is what you want.
Science is mostly used as word in a provocative way to differing viewpoints in here though. It has also dawned on me that most are just regurgitating information they have without actually knowing or actual experience. Like copy pasting a Google search result.

Then when you, "a scientist", see an opinion that's not aligning with the majority in the "science circles" it's easy to just find a few things with a test "it's not peer reviewed ergo it's false" and then demand a test in a lab with representatives from four continents while filmed with 16 cameras.

Me and others have supplied both proof, evidence and data that shows driver break in is real. These suggests that it's possible to be audible in speakers in some cases.

Give me a break using "in the name of science" if you actually isn't able to move your own opinion in the face of proof.

Which was not proofs and you don’t even re-link that

 

[HarmonicTHD]

There is evidence of driver break in in this thread that suggests it's both audible and able to measure. That's a fact.
If you deem this evidence false you should prove why it's wrong data.

I don’t recall any evidence of audible break-in. Only temp related changes, which doesn’t count. I get the theory of material becoming more fatigued but haven’t seen audible evidence. As this thread is a mess and I might have overlooked it - could you please link the post(s) with the facts showing audible break-in? Thx.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

I don’t recall any evidence of audible break-in. Only temp related changes, which doesn’t count. I get the theory of material becoming more fatigued but haven’t seen audible evidence. As this thread is a mess and I might have overlooked it - could you please link the post(s) with the facts showing audible break-in? Thx.

I'm sorry but I simply won't backtrack to prove anything. It's just going in circles. It's a waste of time as I'm sure if I will you will just point out some "mistake" and here goes the arguments that has been written before once again. I know it, you know it. You just want me to link the posts so you can point out how obviously faulty they are.
No bite here..

 

[Deleted member 48726]

• Sound is affected by speaker design
• Speaker design is used and affected by T&S driver parameters
• T&S parameters is demonstratively changing with use from new

It's perfectly possible to experience change in sound with use of new drivers or speakers. Not all though. Why this is has also been discussed but some driver mf test drivers in production QC. Materials play a large role too.

It's oblivious to dismiss things on the basis that you personally have never experienced it. Especially when provided with substantial proof of its existence.

Think of how the world would look like if too many people were narrow minded like thi..... Uh uh.

 

[YSC]

• Sound is affected by speaker design
• Speaker design is used and affected by T&S driver parameters
• T&S parameters is demonstratively changing with use from new

It's perfectly possible to experience change in sound with use of new drivers or speakers. Not all though. Why this is has also been discussed but some driver mf test drivers in production QC. Materials play a large role too.

It's oblivious to dismiss things on the basis that you personally have never experienced it. Especially when provided with substantial proof of its existence.

Think of how the world would look like if too many people were narrow minded like thi..... Uh uh.

That’s more like for the sake of arguing… it’s like except those “breaking in” which actually damaged the driver, all the T&S parameter changes are below what is audible, and way less than day to day ambient environment changes would induce in a normal room, and all T&S changes happened with any data shown, it’s a continuous curve constantly changing and never really settles to a fixed value, that’s not breaking in but merely wearing off or wear and tear, in conventional term break in is a process where you play it loud for a certain time and it settled in its final performance, wearing down is just like aging, it continues its degradation until it dies. T&S even changes with brand new manufactured parts vs one kept in store for a few years, which naturally weathered

 

[HarmonicTHD]

I'm sorry but I simply won't backtrack to prove anything. It's just going in circles. It's a waste of time as I'm sure if I will you will just point out some "mistake" and here goes the arguments that has been written before once again. I know it, you know it. You just want me to link the posts so you can point out how obviously faulty they are.
No bite here..

If it is such clear cut evidence as you claim it is, how could I point out it’s potential faultiness and how come you are afraid to relink it to end the discussion once and for all?

 

[BDWoody]

It's just going in circles. It's a waste of time...

Yes.

No bite here..

No more post here.