Is there a sub $10k speaker that would beat or equal all $20k+ speakers in a blind test?

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

Many people also consider speakers to fall under the furniture category as something like an ELX tower can't be hidden like electronics, so they could prefer a different speaker that performs similarly based largely on appearance and how it fits with their style.

true, but not really relevant in a blind test situation.

 

[2Sunny]

I think you are wrong in your assumption about what most here would disagree with. The only issue I have with your last sentence is the part about "beating out any over 20K speaker." If the 20K speaker is doing the right things just like the 10K speaker, they'd likely be pretty much indistinguishable. In other words, some would choose one and some would prefer the other in an almost random way.

I completely agree regarding "random way", just didn't put it down in words yet in this thread, but I'm assuming that in a blind preference test people would have no way of knowing if they were listening to speaker A or speaker B and if enough songs were sampled the results would appear random meaning there was no preference. That is what I believe would happen when comparing a Blade to an ELX.

Also, people are just starting to vote, but I think you might be right in that most folks here think "yes" and that IS surprising to me.

 

[Oddball]

Looks like OP is on audio journey, kind of accelerated one. Nothing wrong with that.

As far as the poll, yeah, don't have a crystal ball so not sure if I can contribute. But I am sure that Ascend Acoustics ELX Ribbon tower is not on its own in the category of capable speakers. As noted, active Cardioid speakers would have many advantages for deep pockets, and people might actually pick them up in the test. Many passive speakers in that price range are great and one should not be blindfolded to audition them.

Just to add - there are more rabbit wholes than just towers. Subs are a pretty deep one, EQ probably even deeper - if has end at all. Pursuit of perfection unfortunately leads to all of them.

Overall approach to a HT setup will answer many questions that OP has, but it's kind of everything happening at once and in a multiverse. So no wonder that there is some confusion as the overall setup is probably going to evolve to something greater than what it is now.

I shared my story of trying to get to perfection here. No need to say I did not get there even with much more thought and resources that I have put to it. There are at least two more stops - ART and Trinnov.

I managed to lock the temptation door and throw away the key :)

As far as video is concerned, budget is likely the key point to determine where one ends up. Preferences for cinematic PJ experience and screen size obviously also come to play though. Had 120" screen at one point and had TVs of many sizes, usually got the biggest size that was available at...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Heinrich]

As always just curios what the general feeling is here …

Dunno if available commercially, but it‘s doable for less than 5k a pair. And that would be perfect, or better to say superior or equivalent to everything.

 

[Sokel]

Concerning the OP:
At what listening distance, SPL, room volume, treated or untreated room, freedom of positioning, stereo or mono bass to address some of the test conditions.

Limiting it, blind how and where? At what level? And at what freq level matched? (oh boy, that is a task of its own) .

 

[Pearljam5000]

8361
It beats every speaker I've heard (I prefer not to name names)
Obviously I haven't heard any speaker on the planet or the KH420 that should be as good or better going by the reviews

 

[Sokel]

8361
It beats every speaker I've heard (I prefer not to name names)
Obviously I haven't heard any speaker on the planet or the KH420 that should be as good or better going by the reviews

I would better observe the range of a company's speakers to see what separates them at a double or triple price tag.
See for example some really nice speakers at Stereophile's review, both by Aerial Acoustics who seem to know what they're doing:

Aerial Acoustics 20T V2 loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com

Sidebar 3: Measurements The quasi-anechoic measurements were all performed using DRA Labs' MLSSA system and a calibrated DPA 4006 microphone. The Aerial Acoustics 20T V2 is specified as having a voltage sensitivity of 90dB/2.83V/m; my estimate was somewhat lower, at 88dB(B)/2.83V/m on the...

www.stereophile.com

Aerial Acoustics Model 7T loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com

Sidebar 3: Measurements My estimate of the Aerial Acoustics Model 7T's B-weighted sensitivity on its tweeter axis was 86.6dB/2.83V/m—significantly lower than the specified 89dB. The electrical impedance remains between 4 and 8 ohms over much of the audioband (fig.1), but drops to 3.5 ohms in the...

www.stereophile.com

It seems to me that what separates them is mostly meat, and as not everyone runs subs (or if they do, proper integration and time has to be added to price)

No joking now, that out of the box in-room response is a dream, it deserves every penny.

 

[Mort]

Obviously since I spend so much time posting (since I'm kinda tied to home) I am more than interested in hearing what you think is a better question!

How about 'What problem are you trying to solve? '

You are making lots of posts with thought experiments and hypotheticals.

 

[2Sunny]

How about 'What problem are you trying to solve? '

You are making lots of posts and with thought experiments and hypotheticals.

I'm not trying to solve any problem and I make the next remark not to garner sympathy but to elaborate the why you seem to be asking.

I was diagnosed with cancer in October of 2023 and recently finished 2 years of chemo, radiation, and surgery. The great news is I am cancer free at the moment when 2 years ago I had a 98% probability of being dead in a year, but the surgery took out most of my rectum and so I visit the bathroom about 20-30 times a day so basically I'm stuck at home and this forum plus several others are providing me with hours of entertainment, and playing with speakers is something I can do at home no problem. The questions I ask are related to what I spend my time researching and seeking an answer to and I hope they elicit discussion from which I can learn. In fact I am in the process of purchasing KEF Blade 2 Metas so they can be professionally tested at a formal audio studio so I should have an honest answer to my first question: Can Ascends ELX Ribbon towers beat KEF Blade 2 Metas in a blind test?

I think my real question comes from 2 recent discussions I had online with 2 prominent YouTube reviewers. Both have claimed they could pick out a KEF in a blind test against an Ascend, and quite simply I don't believe them so I'm interested in building evidence to support my theory that the differences between those two speakers are not audible.

 

[Mort]

Sorry for your diagnosis. Good luck.


The differences are absolutely discernable. I'd be shocked if you can't hear the lower bass and difference in directivity. You are focusing solely on the on axis frequency response.

You don't know what you don't know, ya know? The best thing you can do is to actually buy and listen. Good you are doing that.

 

[Pearljam5000]

I'm not trying to solve any problem and I make the next remark not to garner sympathy but to elaborate the why you seem to be asking.

I was diagnosed with cancer in October of 2023 and recently finished 2 years of chemo, radiation, and surgery. The great news is I am cancer free at the moment when 2 years ago I had a 98% probability of being dead in a year, but the surgery took out my lowest intestinal organ and so I visit the bathroom about 20-30 times a day so basically I'm stuck at home and this forum plus several others are providing me with hours of entertainment, and playing with speakers is something I can do at home no problem. The questions I ask are related to what I spend my time researching and seeking an answer to and I hope they elicit discussion from which I can learn. In fact I am in the process of purchasing KEF Blade 2 Metas so they can be professionally tested at a formal audio studio so I should have an honest answer to my first question: Can Ascends ELX Ribbon towers beat KEF Blade 2 Metas in a blind test?

I think my real question comes from 2 recent discussions I had online with 2 prominent YouTube reviewers. Both have claimed they could pick out a KEF in a blind test against an Ascend, and quite simply I don't believe them so I'm interested in building evidence to support my theory that the differences between those two speakers are not audible.

It doesn't matter how they measure and all the reviews you read
You need to hear them to decide
There's no way they'd sound the same as they're different designs and technologies
Just set a budget, hear everything you can at that price range and pick the one you like the most

 

[2Sunny]

I have already tested Revel F35s, F36s, F226s and Ascends ELXs against each other in my home and found that I can not hear the tiniest of difference. They all sound great to me. (I used Erin's recommendations on what to listen for). What I'm dying to find out is if people who claim they can tell the difference really can. I will not be taking possession of the Blades, but instead will have them sent to a manufacturer who has the ability to perform a proper blind test, and I will be most interested to see the results. Obviously such results will not prove anything either way, but they will provide evidence either in support of or against my theory and I find that very interesting and feel incredibly lucky that I can indulge such silly curiosity.

 

[sceptical1]

"feel incredibly lucky that I can indulge such silly curiosity."
After dodging the bullet I would do the same thing. Wording your thread titles to allow some closure wouldn't hurt, though. Some questions have no answer.

 

[aarons915]

I have already tested Revel F35s, F36s, F226s and Ascends ELXs against each other in my home and found that I can not hear the tiniest of difference. They all sound great to me. (I used Erin's recommendations on what to listen for). What I'm dying to find out is if people who claim they can tell the difference really can. I will not be taking possession of the Blades, but instead will have them sent to a manufacturer who has the ability to perform a proper blind test, and I will be most interested to see the results. Obviously such results will not prove anything either way, but they will provide evidence either in support of or against my theory and I find that very interesting and feel incredibly lucky that I can indulge such silly curiosity.

View attachment 458601

My first real blind test was years ago, you can search it on AVS forum LS50 vs Revel M105, I too couldn't tell a difference initially, they both sounded great. It wasn't until I attempted to test them similarly to the Harman method that I could easily spot differences, IE level matched, 1 speaker of each in mono, able to instantly switch back and forth and I was blindfolded. If you are simply swapping out speakers and playing a few songs and declaring no difference that isn't the way to do it, there are too many biases at play and our audible memory is too short, check out the thread from Dr. Toole on evaluating speakers in mono for more on this.

Once I did that proper comparison I was easily able to pick a winner between the 2, every song was unanimous and it took less than 10 seconds per song to tell a difference, it was much easier. You might need to do the same thing and I'm sure your results will change.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Personally I'd go for a pro studio monitor
Saves me the hassle of finding the right amp /preamp and cables
Also very reliable and durable

 

[2Sunny]

My first real blind test was years ago, you can search it on AVS forum LS50 vs Revel M105, I too couldn't tell a difference initially, they both sounded great. It wasn't until I attempted to test them similarly to the Harman method that I could easily spot differences, IE level matched, 1 speaker of each in mono, able to instantly switch back and forth and I was blindfolded. If you are simply swapping out speakers and playing a few songs and declaring no difference that isn't the way to do it, there are too many biases at play and our audible memory is too short, check out the thread from Dr. Toole on evaluating speakers in mono for more on this.

Once I did that proper comparison I was easily able to pick a winner between the 2, every song was unanimous and it took less than 10 seconds per song to tell a difference, it was much easier. You might need to do the same thing and I'm sure your results will change.

First I put each pair through the tests recommended by Erin in the video I linked which gave me a good appreciation for sound stage and the ability to hear sonic details that not all speakers can delineate then I used an A/B switch and had the speakers behind a curtain and had my son flip a coin to determine which speaker to play first then played 10 tracks with my son controlling the switch. My level matching wasn't perfect, but what I did was measure the dBs using an iPhone app and figuring out the volume setting needed to achieve close to the same volume between speakers. The level matching was probably the biggest flaw in my test rig. I should note that my son who is an excellent musician COULD hear a difference and preferred the ELXs of the 4 pairs I had.

 

[aarons915]

First I put each pair through the tests recommended by Erin in the video I linked which gave me a good appreciation for sound stage and the ability to hear sonic details that not all speakers can delineate then I used an A/B switch and had the speakers behind a curtain and had my son flip a coin to determine which speaker to play first then played 10 tracks with my son controlling the switch. My level matching wasn't perfect, but what I did was measure the dBs using an iPhone app and figuring out the volume setting needed to achieve close to the same volume between speakers. The level matching was probably the biggest flaw in my test rig. I should note that my son who is an excellent musician COULD hear a difference and preferred the ELXs of the 4 pairs I had.

Did you do it in mono though? That's a much bigger difference than people realize. Nothing wrong with the ELX being as good as it gets for you either

 

[2Sunny]

Did you do it in mono though? That's a much bigger difference than people realize. Nothing wrong with the ELX being as good as it gets for you either

I did not, but you got me thinking to give it a try to see if I then DO hear a difference. I suspect even just not using a sub would make a difference as well. Would be fun to be able to pick out the more expensive speaker especially considering the F226 is roughly 3 times the price of the F35.

 

[aarons915]

I did not, but you got me thinking to give it a try to see if I then DO hear a difference. I suspect even just not using a sub would make a difference as well. Would be fun to be able to pick out the more expensive speaker especially considering the F226 is roughly 3 times the price of the F35.

Mono is so much easier to spot differences it's not funny. I also personally like to normalize the bass between speakers and I totally understand that isn't fair but if you plan to use subwoofers like I do you shouldn't care about the performance under 80Hz or so, I like to focus on 100Hz and up

 

[Chrispy]

If if you did discern a significant difference would it be preference based or reference based? Just in one room? One seat? The logistics, time and money involved to even approach being able to answer the question is huge. The who cares option is more mine, but it wouldn't be just because it was limited to blind testing....which is fine but just adds a lot of complexity to so many comparisons.