Is there a sub $10k speaker that would beat or equal all $20k+ speakers in a blind test?

[2Sunny]

As always just curios what the general feeling is here on ASR on this highly controversial topic. For those who vote yes I'd also be curios to know what speaker or speakers you are thinking about. At the moment I personally have a belief that an Ascend Acoustics ELX Ribbon tower could equal any more expensive speaker in a blind test. If you voted for option 3 I'd love to hear your thoughts on why you think blind tests are not helpful and more importantly if there is any way you see to create a blind test that WAS helpful.

There are some assumptions that I could not include in the question.

1) I'm talking about speakers intended for normal rooms say roughly less than 500 sq ft.
2) I'm assuming bass response is negated with either a filter or using a sub.

 

[sceptical1]

Enough already

 

[2Sunny]

Enough already

My other thread was deleted and I was encouraged to restart something new. My apologies if you are offended.

 

[DVDdoug]

Sorting the ASR reviews by Preference Rating, the highest rated speaker is the Neumann KH420 which is about $5000 USD.

I'm not sure if I've ever heard a $10 or $20K speaker! I'm sure most people here haven't heard them ALL, and certainly not in "fair" A/B listening setups in the same room at the same time with the same program material.

If you hand-off the bass to a sub you can probably go lower in cost.

 

[JiiPee]

None of us is aware of all 20K$+ speakers, not to mention having meaningful data about their sound quality.

 

[mj30250]

This is an easy no for the simple reason of bass performance. There are some (very expensive) giants out there which can output tremendous amounts of clean bass that a smaller, sub-$10k speaker that was otherwise well designed couldn't approach without the assistance of subwoofers.

Beyond that, if bass was somehow equalized the question is essentially impossible to answer. To even begin formulating an educated guess would require objective anechoic data for every model of speaker on Earth, and this simply does not exist.

edit: Looks like you edited the OP as I was replying so the second paragraph would apply.

 

[Leeken]

There’s a very large difference between A 20k speaker and ALL 20k speakers,so it’s impossible to answer because no one has heard ALL 20k speakers,absolutely not a single soul (although I’m sure someone will be on here who reckons they have pretty soon)

 

[ShadowBoxer]

. At the moment I personally have a belief that an Ascend Acoustics ELX Ribbon tower could equal any more expensive speaker in a blind test.

Based on what?

 

[Selkirks]

It reads like someone trying to justify their purchase, or get a dopamine hit. I don't see the point in a question about blind testing if the testing was not performed.

 

[mj30250]

I personally have a belief that an Ascend Acoustics ELX Ribbon tower could equal any more expensive speaker in a blind test.

Missed this the first time, perhaps another OP edit. I'm not sure how anyone could declare this to be the case for any speaker. Not even someone at the level of an Amir or Erin or John Atkinson - who have more experience both objectively testing and listening to multitudes of speakers than nearly anyone else on the planet - could begin to make such a declaration with any degree of certainty.

I see that you've been rapidly cycling through speakers in your house since posing a question about diminishing returns just a few short months ago. It's great that you seem excited and curious about the hobby (welcome!), but perhaps tap the brakes a bit, do some more reading (Dr. Toole's Sound Reproduction books are a fantastic start), and take a look at some of the publicly available blind studies that have been published over the years.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

I'd be willing to bet there's $500 speakers that could beat or equal 20K speakers in a blind test. "All" 20K speakers is a ridiculous premise. What exactly would distinguish one good 20K speaker from another good 20K speaker? And what in particular would distinguish a good 5 or 10K speaker from a "similar spec" 20K speaker? Is there something magical about the 20K speakers +/-3dbs 20hz-20Khz that would make it notable in comparison to the sub 10K speaker's +/-3dbs 20hz-20Khz? Assuming both speakers are set up with some room correction and neither is doing anything terrible to the sound they'd be pretty tough to distinguish at equal volume...

There needs to be a "maybe" option in the poll because the actual result of a proper blind test between any good speaker and any other good speaker (regardless of price) is likely going to end up with nearly a 50/50 preference split.

 

[mj30250]

I'd be willing to bet there's $500 speakers that could beat or equal 20K speakers in a blind test. "All" 20K speakers is a ridiculous premise. What exactly would distinguish one good 20K speaker from another good 20K speaker? And what in particular would distinguish a good 5 or 10K speaker from a "similar spec" 20K speaker? Is there something magical about the 20K speakers +/-3dbs 20hz-20Khz that would make it notable in comparison to the sub 10K speaker's +/-3dbs 20hz-20Khz? Assuming both speakers are set up with some room correction and neither is doing anything terrible to the sound they'd be pretty tough to distinguish at equal volume...

Once you land on speakers that suit your needs and preferences in terms of frequency response, extension, directivity, etc, most of the additional expense is in higher quality/luxury cabinets, as well as SPL increases. Reaching high volumes at your desk while flanked by studio monitors is a dramatically different matter than reaching high volumes in a large room at a 20ft seating distance. The latter tends to be much more expensive unless you are willing to sacrifice in other areas.

For more modest rooms and listening distances, you could certainly put together a world-class, hi-fidelity system that will reach impressive SPL levels for less than $10K.

 

[bachatero]

Neumann KH150 or KH420

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

Once you land on speakers that suit your needs and preferences in terms of frequency response, extension, directivity, etc, most of the additional expense is in higher quality/luxury cabinets, as well as SPL increases. Reaching high volumes at your desk while flanked by studio monitors is a dramatically different matter than reaching high volumes in a large room at a 20ft seating distance. The latter tends to be much more expensive unless you are willing to sacrifice in other areas.

For more modest rooms and listening distances, you could certainly put together a world-class, hi-fidelity system that will reach impressive SPL levels for less than $10K.

yes, of course. But any good blind test is going to have the speakers set at exactly the same volume level. Obviously the speakers you choose need to be able to provide the SPL you need for the space you have to fill. That's a separate issue from sound preference in a blind test really. That's why I noted "similar spec" as part of the equation...not to mention the OP did say he's talking about "normal rooms"

 

[Behrelec 37]

There are certain gray areas or limits in sound reproduction with every speaker company, where distortion often begins to surface, or other mild phenomena when the volume is increased. Is the sound in question no longer the same level as if you then play at the quietest sound reproduction settings when listening?

The limit of passive speakers is known, even if the price is a billion. It is not able to go further than that limit cleanly anymore, even if the outside of the speakers were covered in emeralds.

What about your room and its millions of echoes that mysteriously get entangled in the emotions of its listener when music is played from countless speaker brands. Your understanding of knowledge, psychology and excessive emotional freedom to examine different values is a step in the right direction, if we go only forward on an emotional level we immediately go into the woods and fast, you can see it from thousands of you tube videos where owners present their numerous homes and stereo systems without being able to truly even understand the effect of their room's echoes on their recording microphone properly. The quality of the microphone also affects the sampling of samples.

 

[Mort]

An $1800 speaker, the Philharmonic Audio BMR monitor could equal or beat anything more expensive under certain idosyncratic circumstances.

I think you are asking the wrong question.

 

[2Sunny]

Based on what?

Here is my sequence of logic.

1) Spinorama data can predict whether or not a speaker will sound neutral.
2) Research shows that the majority of listeners prefer neutral speakers.
3) The differences demonstrated by spinorama data between an Ascend Acoustic ELX Ribbon tower and any other neutral speaker of any price are so small as not to be distinguishable by the majority of human ears except bass response.
4) Differences in bass response are easily overcome with the use of a subwoofer so speaker comparison should be done with and without bass response as an issue since some people will be interested in NOT using a subwoofer but most will use a sub.

Obviously I do not believe that only the ELX meets this criteria. It is my belief that there are many speakers in the sub $10k category that have neutral enough data as to make them candidates for beating out any over $20k speaker with equally neutral spinorama data. Clearly this is the issue that most here will disagree with, but I'm curios to know how many agree.

 

[2Sunny]

An $1800 speaker, the Philharmonic Audio BMR monitor could equal or beat anything more expensive under certain idosyncratic circumstances.

I think you are asking the wrong question.

Obviously since I spend so much time posting (since I'm kinda tied to home) I am more than interested in hearing what you think is a better question!

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

Here is my sequence of logic.

1) Spinorama data can predict whether or not a speaker will sound neutral.
2) Research shows that the majority of listeners prefer neutral speakers.
3) The differences demonstrated by spinorama data between an Ascend Acoustic ELX Ribbon tower and any other neutral speaker of any price are so small as not to be distinguishable by the majority of human ears except bass response.
4) Differences in bass response are easily overcome with the use of a subwoofer so speaker comparison should be done with and without bass response as an issue since some people will be interested in NOT using a subwoofer but most will use a sub.

Obviously I do not believe that only the ELX meets this criteria. It is my belief that there are many speakers in the sub $10k category that have neutral enough data as to make them candidates for beating out any over $20k speaker with equally neutral spinorama data. Clearly this is the issue that most hear will disagree with, but I'm curios to know how many agree.

I think you are wrong in your assumption about what most here would disagree with. The only issue I have with your last sentence is the part about "beating out any over 20K speaker." If the 20K speaker is doing the right things just like the 10K speaker, they'd likely be pretty much indistinguishable. In other words, some would choose one and some would prefer the other in an almost random way.

 

[ta240]

At the moment I personally have a belief that an Ascend Acoustics ELX Ribbon tower could equal any more expensive speaker in a blind test.

Are you only comparing the speakers within their optimum listening window?

Because for people that may listen in different positions at different times, seated, reclined, laying down, standing up, or working on a project on the floor, the Titan Dome ELX would win over the Ribbon. So the ELX basically beats the ELX....

And there lies the biggest problem with trying to compare speakers in the same way electronics are compared, speakers put out the sound in different patterns and react differently with the rooms so they suit different situations differently.

Many people also consider speakers to fall under the furniture category as something like an ELX tower can't be hidden like electronics, so they could prefer a different speaker that performs similarly based largely on appearance and how it fits with their style.