Dirac ART is now running on beta FW for Denon Xx800H AVRs!

[GXAlan]

Talked to some Masimo guys at Axpona today. They met with Dirac guys yesterday (Dirac was not an exhibitor at Axpona). Apparently, Dirac is focusing on making it more consumer friendly (presumably reliable) because apparently the Storm results were inconsistent (i.e. took multiple runs). So sometime in 2024 but not in the immediate future is what I was told (obviously informally)

The problem is with ART more than “consumer friendly” concern since, it’s unlikely the person buying ART with their AVR is a novice….

 

[gorman]

The problem is with ART more than “consumer friendly” concern since, it’s unlikely the person buying ART with their AVR is a novice….

What do you mean by "the problem is with ART"?

 

[GXAlan]

What do you mean by "the problem is with ART"?

While Dirac is “blaming” the delay on it not being "consumer friendly" (a fancy way of blaming the customer as not being smart enough to troubleshoot), I wonder if there is some degree of challenge once you get into multiple rooms with variable speaker layouts or a challenge with the software (given recent complaints of regular users getting dropped samples from Windows and Mac umik-1/2 recordings). First is a problem with ART algorithm generalizability and the second is a problem with the software used to make the recordings for Dirac ART.

Trinnov has Waveforming as its competition, the ability to position speakers in 3D-space since it has a 4 channel calibrated mic instead of a single one, and they really emphasize that you need very specific subwoofer positioning. Dirac Unison has worked in cars, but that also requires very specific knowledge of speaker position.

That is, it seems like the Storm Audio crowd has been happy with it. They didn't have to pay for it though.

I don't really buy the "not consumer friendly" because an ordinary consumer would be running Audyssey and not even care about ART, and a sophisticated hobbyist with multiple subs and experience with REW waterfall plots is probably willing to work to get the best results.

 

[Oddball]

I really appreciate you input and it seems based on your first paragraph that that there are some issues to iron out. As end user that would have to pay $1k to upgrade to ART (Marantz user, otherwise not really interested in Dirac), I would like to have a fully baked product. One of my feature requests would be not just ART on-off feature, but rather a sliding scale based on decay or some other relevant parameter. I would like to explore ART, but if it impacts my SPL to a significant extent, not sure what would be the answer as have not had experience with it in my system. Perhaps having a compromise solution might be helpful.

As far as Trinnov, pretty interesting concept, but probably less applicable to broader audience as you really need to have space for that - and 8 subs. I don't so out of my reach.

While I am sure that reference to Audyssey users is generally correct, one should remember that D&M offers pretty similar options to use the bass routing options as Storm does, and on top of that offers Audyssey RC, as opposed to just importing REW filters (which could also be imported in Audy). I did ask a question(s) how these types of bass management systems fare with ART, but got no response.

 

[Aaronb1138]

While Dirac is “blaming” the delay on it not being "consumer friendly" (a fancy way of blaming the customer as not being smart enough to troubleshoot), I wonder if there is some degree of challenge once you get into multiple rooms with variable speaker layouts or a challenge with the software (given recent complaints of regular users getting dropped samples from Windows and Mac umik-1/2 recordings). First is a problem with ART algorithm generalizability and the second is a problem with the software used to make the recordings for Dirac ART.

Trinnov has Waveforming as its competition, the ability to position speakers in 3D-space since it has a 4 channel calibrated mic instead of a single one, and they really emphasize that you need very specific subwoofer positioning. Dirac Unison has worked in cars, but that also requires very specific knowledge of speaker position.

That is, it seems like the Storm Audio crowd has been happy with it. They didn't have to pay for it though.

I don't really buy the "not consumer friendly" because an ordinary consumer would be running Audyssey and not even care about ART, and a sophisticated hobbyist with multiple subs and experience with REW waterfall plots is probably willing to work to get the best results.

Normally I would agree with most of your points, but the very next post after yours is the opposite example. There are more than enough consumers in this hobby (heck, just these forums) who lack one or more of time, intellect, or drive and want an easy mode button while still feeling entitled to the very best. Once a feature is a paid upgrade, the entitlement gets a lot worse. If the feedback from Dirac about trying to idiot proof it is true, then they are going from their own experience with support volume needed towards D&M products for Dirac Live and DLBM license upgrades in the past. Support for a vocal and problematic minority can cost more than some individually paid at these price points and specialty technical depth.

It would be great if they offered a discounted "public beta" with intentionally limited support available for a lot of the people here, but those who are going to cry loudest are also the most likely to jump in on a discount or early release.

On the other hand, I find it more likely that D&M and Dirac are still negotiating (both technical and $) their ends of the release and a little finger pointing each direction is a pretty standard "buy time" tactic. It's harmless to both sides when leaked as rumor and hearsay when the allegations don't get too specific, vitriolic, or damning.

 

[Oddball]

I must admit that time is scarce in my case and that impacts the drive as well. As far as intellect, it definitively helps, but setting up a buggy or complex audio system requires more of thoroughness, patience and persistence - we are not sending a man to the Mars really.

Agree that they should offer ART sooner rather than later - and at beta discount even better. It would stop the wining on the forums and make at least some people very happy. The ones that would prefer a complete release can always wait, so absolutely no harm done.

My most important point in the post above was that I would want a level of control over potential (likely?) SPL loss vs. reducing decay times, not just ART on/off feature. I am sure I can eventually work that out (at least to some extent) by spending 100 hours (wild guess) tweaking and fully understanding what's under the hood and how it all works, but that would interfere with my family life and chill time (since can't cut if off from work), which I care about greatly. Understand that many people might not care about this, but I do. Used to enjoy "setting it all up", but honestly now greatly prefer just enjoying the content.

 

[gorman]

I agree with Oddball. Life is not infinite. Time is precious. I want to pay and, while I appreciate and care about what happens under the hood, I want stuff to work.

 

[GXAlan]

On the other hand, I find it more likely that D&M and Dirac are still negotiating (both technical and $) their ends of the release and a little finger pointing each direction is a pretty standard "buy time" tactic. It's harmless to both sides when leaked as rumor and hearsay when the allegations don't get too specific, vitriolic, or damning.

This I agree with fully. Focal Astral 16 is still lacking Dirac ART support despite being the same hardware platform as the Storm Audio. This does suggest at a "business" reason for delays.

Very few people waiting for ART are able to move to something like Trinnov while being inpatient.

 

[Oddball]

This I agree with fully. Focal Astral 16 is still lacking Dirac ART support despite being the same hardware platform as the Storm Audio. This does suggest at a "business" reason for delays.

Very few people waiting for ART are able to move to something like Trinnov while being inpatient.

While there is a number of people very anxious to move to ART, I would hope that even more people are scratching their heads to understand what ART really is. I am certainly one of them.

Dirac needs to do more to make things more transparent and coherent. I am not watching 1 hour videos either trying to figure out the plumbing.

I would like Dirac to make a proper pitch and address impact to various systems, like their DL, DLBC as well as D&M and Storm systems that had advanced bass routing and support management before ART showed up. This should be some kind of white paper on their website.

Their current marketing through the forum hype is really not a proper way of doing things. They currently stand behind exactly zero claims of what ART really does, which is similar to my comfort as to how it works and what it would do to my system.

 

[Ciobi69]

While there is a number of people very anxious to move to ART, I would hope that even more people are scratching their heads to understand what ART really is. I am certainly one of them.

Dirac needs to do more to make things more transparent and coherent. I am not watching 1 hour videos either trying to figure out the plumbing.

I would like Dirac to make a proper pitch and address impact to various systems, like their DL, DLBC as well as D&M and Storm systems that had advanced bass routing and support management before ART showed up. This should be some kind of white paper on their website.

Their current marketing through the forum hype is really not a proper way of doing things. They currently stand behind exactly zero claims of what ART really does, which is similar to my comfort as to how it works and what it would do to my system.

There are measurements made by People dlbc Vs art ecc. With results on rew. And the waterfall spectrogram and spl looks very well

 

[Oddball]

There are measurements made by People dlbc Vs art ecc. With results on rew. And the waterfall spectrogram and spl looks very well

By people? I have no doubt that they are good people but Dirac ART will be $1k for me and would like some more specific guidance and results from Dirac on their website, not just from the good people that are trying to be helpful but should not really do a job that Dirac should do. And few graphs they have on their website does not really qualify for anything.

Also not really interested in DL or DLBC measurements as don’t run these. I already run a system that uses support between bed and sub channels and would like to see impact on such system on Dirac charts. And impact to SPL of such systems as well as ability to adjust the impact on SPL vs decay on a sliding scale. This could have a very different outcome in systems using the advanced bass routing options.

Obviously Dirac owns their software so it’s up to them to decide how to market it, but at this point I am really very very far from getting in, whenever is that they decide to showcase ART for D&M hardware.

 

[Ciobi69]

By people? I have no doubt that they are good people but Dirac ART will be $1k for me and would like some more specific guidance and results from Dirac on their website, not just from the good people that are trying to be helpful but should not really do a job that Dirac should do. And few graphs they have on their website does not really qualify for anything.

Also not really interested in DL or DLBC measurements as don’t run these. I already run a system that uses support between bed and sub channels and would like to see impact on such system on Dirac charts. And impact to SPL of such systems as well as ability to adjust the impact on SPL vs decay on a sliding scale. This could have a very different outcome in systems using the advanced bass routing options.

Obviously Dirac owns their software so it’s up to them to decide how to market it, but at this point I am really very very far from getting in, whenever is that they decide to showcase ART in D&M.

I completely get your point. They dont provide the amount of information to justify such an expensive drc

 

[dlaloum]

While there is a number of people very anxious to move to ART, I would hope that even more people are scratching their heads to understand what ART really is. I am certainly one of them.

Dirac needs to do more to make things more transparent and coherent. I am not watching 1 hour videos either trying to figure out the plumbing.

I would like Dirac to make a proper pitch and address impact to various systems, like their DL, DLBC as well as D&M and Storm systems that had advanced bass routing and support management before ART showed up. This should be some kind of white paper on their website.

Their current marketing through the forum hype is really not a proper way of doing things. They currently stand behind exactly zero claims of what ART really does, which is similar to my comfort as to how it works and what it would do to my system.

Dirac did post waterfall charts and such...

But they also pointed out that like many things speaker/room related, there are too many variables to be able to make guarantees...

I would suggest thinking of it like ABS (anti lock brakes) on cars... you can talk about (and measure) reduced braking distances, but you can't really specify a braking distance for ABS vs non ABS, as that would depend on the tyres used, car weight, car suspension, road surface, wet vs dry, etc... etc...

Amps and DAC's basically work in a single dimension - with well defined parameters, which most of us can (to some degree) understand.

RoomEQ works in 4 dimensions (including time!) - and has enough complexity, that most of the people designing in this area come from a university mathematics or physics background.

Add to that, the parameters that are under the manufacturers control (not Dirac) - such as where/when to mix and rout bass... and things get tricky. - There seems to be an inherent tension between manufacturer bass mixing and routing and Dirac handling of shared load, LFE and all channels bass....

Still, it shows up one of Dirac's weaknesses - they need a really good communicator to help with explaining the highly complex, in a simplified form that the rest of us can understand!!

 

[Dj7675]

That is, it seems like the Storm Audio crowd has been happy with it. They didn't have to pay for it though.

Slight correction… if you purchased your Stormaudio unit after Jan 1 2023 then it was “free”. If before, the cost was $299

 

[f1shb0n3]

Itching to get those discounted Denon AVR-A1H in anticipation of Dirac ART..
Wondering what are the chances it lands this year and what the license would cost - would I need to buy DBLC too and if it works with ART?
For 7.4.4 setup I could immediately benefit from DBLC too I guess, should be better than my Multi-Sub Optimizer adjustments.

 

[pogo]

The biggest hurdle under ART is not having potent setups. For example, if you have four Dali Kores in the corners and good amplification, you should immediately get a very good result, as the support settings are also less of a problem here.
In addition, DLBC is not required

 

[GXAlan]

While there is a number of people very anxious to move to ART, I would hope that even more people are scratching their heads to understand what ART really is. I am certainly one of them.

Create a support ticket with your Dirac project and ask them to do a simulation of what ART may do with your project. I did that when I was going to return DLBC. I would post my email, but email at the bottom says it's confidential.

The biggest hurdle under ART is not having potent setups. For example, if you have four Dali Kores in the corners and good amplification, you should immediately get a very good result, as the support settings are also less of a problem here.
In addition, DLBC is not required.

Agree. The other question is what actual content there is that low. That is, running large + sub where my large speakers dip down to 35 Hz versus DLBC MSO where the subs can fill below 35 Hz doesn't make a big difference for movies since there is very little bass content below 35 Hz that is in the bed layer and not the LFE layer.

You do need a processor that will route LFE input into your main speakers as well.

 

[Dj7675]

The biggest hurdle under ART is not having potent setups. For example, if you have four Dali Kores in the corners and good amplification, you should immediately get a very good result, as the support settings are also less of a problem here.
In addition, DLBC is not required

If you have a pair of good speakers and 4 subs in the corners, you have a potent setup. ART does not care if the frequency support is a sub or a speaker. Also, the level required from the support speakers or subs is generally quite fairly low and not all that taxing (and can be adjusted). Dirac in the software will show you both the frequencies of the support speakers used and their level, so this can be seen quite clearly. I may sound against the use of full range speakers (I am not) but think you can way overstate their importance or necessity to get ART to work well.

 

[f1shb0n3]

If you have a pair of good speakers and 4 subs in the corners, you have a potent setup. ART does not care if the frequency support is a sub or a speaker. Also, the level required from the support speakers or subs is generally quite fairly low and not all that taxing (and can be adjusted). Dirac in the software will show you both the frequencies of the support speakers used and their level, so this can be seen quite clearly. I may sound against the use of full range speakers (I am not) but think you can way overstate their importance or necessity to get ART to work well.

My 7.4.4 setup with the cheapest speakers and subs (a full set of Infinity R series) with Dirac Live on Onkyo TX-RZ50 and MiniDSP+MSO is pretty great as is. Really wondering how much DBLC or ART can improve from here.

 

[pogo]

SVS and Definitive Technology have probably recognized the requirements and have included potent floor-standing loudspeakers in their product portfolio.