Denon Replaces AKM AK4458 DAC IC in X4700H and X6700H

[delta76]

But your approach insinuates the differences are audible.
In the presented cases, I highly doubt the diff. would be the audible.

as I said no, I believe there is no audible difference. I just wanted to explain why some people want to have a "perfect chain", like a peace of mind.
I'm using an updated x4700h and I would be happier if it is still using AKM DAC, even though I hear no difference compared to my x3400h

 

[Sal1950]

as I said no, I believe there is no audible difference. I just wanted to explain why some people want to have a "perfect chain", like a peace of mind.
I'm using an updated x4700h and I would be happier if it is still using AKM DAC, even though I hear no difference compared to my x3400h

Fully understood, I believe I've said the same in reference to my late production X4700H.

 

[Taso]

Sulla base delle specifiche, sono d'accordo che ADC non è buono, ma non è orribile.

Anche le specifiche del PCM1690 non sono molto buone. La Rosetta ha specifiche molto migliori, ma non aiuterà molto se il segnale deve comunque passare attraverso la PCM1690.

Se si desidera davvero la migliore qualità audio possibile per lo stereo, potrebbe essere meglio utilizzare l'uscita analogica di un dac esterno e l'ingresso analogico del Denon, la modalità diretta per bypassare l'adc, il dsp e il dac. Quindi usa un desktop o un laptop con la versione standalone di Dirac Live PC come faccio io. Oppure prendi un dispositivo minidsp:

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Tieni presente che le specifiche migliori sono fantastiche, ma il miglioramento delle specifiche potrebbe non comportare miglioramenti udibili.

Grazie per la risposta. L'ak4458 sarebbe un collo di bottiglia verso il convertitore AD rosetta?
Dirac Live PC standalone e software che ha un costo? Quanto?
potrei cercare anche una Marantz? Quale Marantz, più economico, ha il chip AKM?

Grazie ancora

 

[peng]

Thanks for the reply. Would the ak4458 be a bottleneck towards the rosette AD converter?
Dirac Live PC standalone and software that has a cost? How much?
could I also look for a Marantz? Which Marantz, cheaper, has the AK chip?

Thank you again

If you compare the specs, THD+N, SNR etc., you will see that the AK4458 and the Rosetta are very comparable.

AK4458:

(1) DR, S/N: 115dB
(2) THD+N: -107dB
(3) 256x Over sampling (OSR - Doubler)
(4) Sampling Rate: 8kHz  768kHz
(5) 32Bit 8x Digital Filter

It is 2 dB better than the Rosetta in THD+N, only 1 dB better in S/N.
With Marantz, you will pay more and get higher distortions, based on measurements by Amir on this site.

The best one is the AVR-X3600H but you will never find one, nobody seems to want to sell one. It is possible to find used AVR-X3500H.
You may be able to find a AVR-X4400H or X4500H but people will likely want over $1,000 for one if it is in great condition.

Here is an example of a "B" stock X4500H, CAD 1,398

For Marantz, it will be something like a SR6012, or 6013, 6014. The 6015 will likely have the PCM5102A DAC that is not good. If you are in Asia or Europe Marantz price are the same or not much more than Denon's, but again, that don't measure well on the test bench probably because of the stupid HDAMs.

There are many options, which one is best depends on what your goal really is.

 

[MarcT]

If you compare the specs, THD+N, SNR etc., you will see that the AK4458 and the Rosetta are very comparable.

AK4458:

(1) DR, S/N: 115dB
(2) THD+N: -107dB
(3) 256x Over sampling (OSR - Doubler)
(4) Sampling Rate: 8kHz  768kHz
(5) 32Bit 8x Digital Filter

It is 2 dB better than the Rosetta in THD+N, only 1 dB better in S/N.
With Marantz, you will pay more and get higher distortions, based on measurements by Amir on this site.

The best one is the AVR-X3600H but you will never find one, nobody seems to want to sell one. It is possible to find used AVR-X3500H.
You may be able to find a AVR-X4400H or X4500H but people will likely want over $1,000 for one if it is in great condition.

Here is an example of a "B" stock X4500H, CAD 1,398

For Marantz, it will be something like a SR6012, or 6013, 6014. The 6015 will likely have the PCM5102A DAC that is not good. If you are in Asia or Europe Marantz price are the same or not much more than Denon's, but again, that don't measure well on the test bench probably because of the stupid HDAMs.

There are many options, which one is best depends on what your goal really is.

What about a 6500? Does it have the same DAC as the 4400 and 4500? It seems that used 6500's are not that hard to find.

 

[peng]

What about a 6500? Does it have the same DAC as the 4400 and 4500? It seems that used 6500's are not that hard to find.

Yes, the 6500 has the AK4458 as well. Basically, Denon and Marantz switched to the ****** PCM5102A since the spring time of 2021.

Denon Replaces AKM AK4458 DAC IC in X4700H and X6700H

Per the Denon website (Google translation from Japanese) in Japan in the product information for at least the X4700H and X6700H AVR's: "The D / A converter IC has been changed since the spring of 2021." The previous DAC IC in the two products is the 8-channel AK4458. This is a rather...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Taso]

Se confronti le specifiche, THD + N, SNR ecc., Vedrai che l'AK4458 e la Rosetta sono molto comparabili.

AK4458:

(1) DR, S / N: 115dB
(2) THD + N: -107dB
(3) Sovracampionamento 256x (OSR - Doubler)
(4) Frequenza di campionamento: 8kHz  768kHz
(5) Filtro digitale 32Bit 8x

È 2 dB migliore della Rosetta in THD + N, solo 1 dB migliore in S / N.
Con Marantz, pagherai di più e otterrai distorsioni più elevate, in base alle misurazioni di Amir su questo sito.

Il migliore è l'AVR-X3600H ma non ne troverai mai uno, nessuno sembra volerne vendere uno. È possibile trovare AVR-X3500H usato.
Potresti essere in grado di trovare un AVR-X4400H o X4500H, ma le persone probabilmente vorranno oltre $ 1.000 per uno se è in ottime condizioni.

Ecco un esempio di un titolo "B" X4500H, CAD 1.398

Per Marantz, sarà qualcosa come un SR6012, o 6013, 6014. Il 6015 avrà probabilmente il DAC PCM5102A che non è buono. Se sei in Asia o in Europa, i prezzi di Marantz sono uguali o non molto più di quelli di Denon, ma ancora una volta, che non misurano bene sul banco di prova probabilmente a causa degli stupidi HDAM.

Ci sono molte opzioni, quale sia la migliore dipende da quale sia il tuo obiettivo.

Grazie per una risposta così dettagliata.
Ho appena visto il test x3500h e mi sembra una vera schifezza.
Penso che il mio 3300 sia migliore del 3500!!!
Penso che il test che ho visto su questo sito dica chiaramente che, anche per il mio uso, è davvero scarso. Sbaglio?
Il 3600 è 100 volte meglio del 3500, proverò a comprarlo.
Ho trovato 2 (3600) per 700 euro.
Quanto è costato nuovo il 3600 e quando è uscito?
Grazie ancora.

 

[peng]

Thanks for such a detailed answer.
I just saw the x3500h test and it seems like real crap to me.
I think my 3300 is better than the 3500!!!!
I think the test I saw on this site clearly says that, even for my use, it is really poor. I err?
The 3600 is 100 times better than the 3500, I will try to buy it.
I found 2 (3600) for 700 euros.
How much did the 3600 cost new and when did it come out?
Thanks again.

You might have read the review wrong. It was crap at higher output voltage by Amir's standard, but the preamp dac measured good at up to about 1.5 V and even at 2 V it still measured at over 70 dB SINAD. much better than the x3300w that Audioholics measured. The speaker output, measured 84 dB SINAD, that's 0.0063% THD+N, better two NAD avrs measured by ASR.

You know 70 dB SINAD is only 0.03% THD+N. That is not really crap, compared to many integrated amps. At the time Audioholics use % THD+N, not SINAD, so be careful you compare properly.

700 Euro for a 3600 is good price if it is in top condition. It has the same dac, opamp, and vol IC as the 3500, and measure a few dB better than the 3500.

 

[Taso]

as I said no, I believe there is no audible difference. I just wanted to explain why some people want to have a "perfect chain", like a peace of mind.
I'm using an updated x4700h and I would be happier if it is still using AKM DAC, even though I hear no difference compared to my x3400h

hi, what does 4700 updated mean? there are 2 different versions, one with an AKM dac? If someone wanted to buy a used one, do you know how you can recognize it? Maybe from the serial? Thank you

 

[delta76]

hi, what does 4700 updated mean? there are 2 different versions, one with an AK dac? If someone wanted to buy a used one, do you know how you can recognize it? Maybe from the serial? Thank you

As you can see in the title, the one with new DAC from TI. Also it should be the one with fixed hdmi board, so any x4700h produced after 5/2021 and with 7xxxx serial number
Mind you, not audible

 

[SloPoke]

hi, what does 4700 updated mean? there are 2 different versions, one with an AK dac? If someone wanted to buy a used one, do you know how you can recognize it? Maybe from the serial? Thank you

I grabbed this quote somewhere, maybe here (?) ....sorry can't remember :

"The S/N has the format LLLL (4 letters) MM (month) YY (year) DDDDD (5 digits).
The AKM 'originals' were built before May 2021 (MMYY below 0521) and have a DDDDD below 70000 (seems to start with a "0" in most cases)."

If built before May 2021 and serial number ends with number below 70000, then has the AKM dacs.

 

[delta76]

I grabbed this quote somewhere, maybe here (?) ....sorry can't remember :

"The S/N has the format LLLL (4 letters) MM (month) YY (year) DDDDD (5 digits).
The AKM 'originals' were built before May 2021 (MMYY below 0521) and have a DDDDD below 70000 (seems to start with a "0" in most cases)."

If built before May 2021 and serial number ends with number below 70000, then has the AKM dacs.

and that is with the faulty HDMI 2.1 board. pick your poison.
in any case almost pointless to find an old AVR which is likely out of warranty just for the DAC. but I can understand the sentiment.

 

[Sal1950]

and that is with the faulty HDMI 2.1 board. pick your poison.
in any case almost pointless to find an old AVR which is likely out of warranty just for the DAC. but I can understand the sentiment.

Bottom line, IMO is they are still the best choice when used as a pre/pro in anything near that price range.
The Marantz 7706, which used to be a value leader is now $3200.
For that money the Monoprice HTP-1 is a better choice.

 

[delta76]

Bottom line, IMO is they are still the best choice when used as a pre/pro in anything near that price range.
The Marantz 7706, which used to be a value leader is now $3200.
For that money the Monoprice HTP-1 is a better choice.

I'm using x4700h and would somewhat recommend it (would recommend x4800h as it's usually on sale for not much more money, and have all the new features + made in japan). I just think it's kind of pointless to find the old version. just go to the stores and pick a new one, and put the worries regarding DAC to rest

 

[Sal1950]

I'm using x4700h and would somewhat recommend it (would recommend x4800h as it's usually on sale for not much more money, and have all the new features + made in japan). I just think it's kind of pointless to find the old version. just go to the stores and pick a new one, and put the worries regarding DAC to rest

Agreed.

 

[Taso]

As you can see in the title, the one with new DAC from TI. Also it should be the one with fixed hdmi board, so any x4700h produced after 5/2021 and with 7xxxx serial number
Mind you, not audible

thanks, so if I understand correctly, if I wanted to buy a used 4700 and be sure it has dac akm, it should have the serial number starting with 6? Thank you

 

[delta76]

thanks, so if I understand correctly, if I wanted to buy a used 4700 and be sure it has dac akm, it should have the serial number starting with 6? Thank you

yes. I'm too lazy to check my x4700h but it should have manufacturing date also, before 05/21 and you are fine

not that I'd recommend it, but if you have to have it, then that's the way

 

[Taso]

yes. I'm too lazy to check my x4700h but it should have manufacturing date also, before 05/21 and you are fine

not that I'd recommend it, but if you have to have it, then that's the way

OK thank you. in what sense would you not recommend? What wouldn't you recommend? buying a 4700 with akm? Thanks again.

 

[delta76]

OK thank you. in what sense would you not recommend? What wouldn't you recommend? buying a 4700 with akm? Thanks again.

I would favor warranty over difference between TI and AKM DAC any day. If you buy an old x4700h it's likely it's out of warranty, or only short warranty left (if it's transferable). you won't hear a difference between TI and DAC, but you will see the difference with HDMI 2.1 (if you have xbox/ps5), and you certainly will feel the difference between warranty and no warranty if you need repair.
I'd recommend to buy x4800h if you can find a good deal (it's been in 1600-1700 EUR range quite often in Europe, not sure about US). x4700h is not a bad choice but only if you can get a good deal on it.

 

[peng]

I'm using x4700h and would somewhat recommend it (would recommend x4800h as it's usually on sale for not much more money, and have all the new features + made in japan). I just think it's kind of pointless to find the old version. just go to the stores and pick a new one, and put the worries regarding DAC to rest

I agree with you on this, but would think that if the OP is going to buy a used one, then unless he plays games that might be bothered with the "faulty HDMI", there is nothing to lose by going with the much better DAC IC if he can find one. I doubt it would make any audible sound improvements between the AK4458 and PCM5102A in reality, but it might because the brain might be influenced by the 5 to 10 dB better SINAD, making it from imagined to real sensation. We give him the facts, then it is for him to do the rest.