Denon AVR-X4800H AVR Review

[GabrielPhoto]

You know, I don't disagree about YT reviews being unreliable, but I will say the review I'm primarily referencing is the one from Ripewave Audio who I actually trust. Check the review where he compared the Cinema 40/50 vs 3800/4800. It was very informative

I was 99% sure you were referring to that video.
Funny enough, that video made me have the complete opposite opinion of him that you have.
To each its own.
Regards

 

[deejaystu]

I was 99% sure you were referring to that video.
Funny enough, that video made me have the complete opposite opinion of him that you have.
To each its own.
Regards

Well it was definitely better then the Daily hifi review, that video was an absolute joke

 

[GabrielPhoto]

Well it was definitely better then the Daily hifi review, that video was an absolute joke

Oh those are like 90% that way.
I bet he wouldn't be able to pick tell which is which in a blind test

 

[peng]

You know, I don't disagree about YT reviews being unreliable, but I will say the review I'm primarily referencing is the one from Ripewave Audio who I actually trust. Check the review where he compared the Cinema 40/50 vs 3800/4800. It was very informative

He's okay, as he seemed to be cautious when expressing his subjective view on sound quality. From the hint he dropped, you can be sure in a blind test he would not be able to guess which one was playing. He picked the Cinema 40 only because he prefers the look of it. When he mentioned the price gaps between those units, he was clearing based on US/Canada's. If he were to based them on European and Asean list price and actual selling price, he would know the price gaps between the C40 vs 4800 and C50 vs 3800 shrink a ton ($200 to $300 or so...), to in one case, one member reported practically no difference between the Denon and Marantz equivalent models (don't remember for sure if it was the C50 vs 3800, it was like, $1 difference).

The Repewave guy at least seem to have a little bit of technical knowledge and he at least did show some internal pictures of the units, but I would caution that all the differences he cited may not be 100% accurate as I found errors in at least one of his video in the past. So I would suggest you fact check everything by digging into the Denon and Marantz websites, that I would trust more, say up to 95% or higher accuracy (in most cases).

In the US/Canada, the 3800 is the best value unless the looks are worth $1,000 or more. In Europe, it depends on how much you think the Marantz look is worth, if that's $200-$300 then Marantz would be the better one.

And no, if you won't hear a difference between any of the 4 units. I am saying this based on my comparison of the previous generation D+M vs my separates that have better specs, measurements and weighed a ton more. They would all sound the same if listen blind, using stereo music. For movies, there won't be audible difference either for those 4 units because they all have the same DSP, RC, and any difference due to software differences would be hard to decipher unless you can AB switch very quickly using some selected tracks.

 

[peng]

This is precisely the response I was looking for. I'm running a 7.3 KEF (Q350 LR and Q650C) sound stage with Def Tech Pro Monitor 1000 surrounds, and 3 SVS SB1000 Pro subs. Adding two heights to make for 7.3.2 (not looking for advice on speaker configurations, I have limitations in my room). My room is fairly large (15x18 ft), so the option for DIRAC is a huge factor. The 4700 is attractive for other reasons, the older Denon internals seem rock solid, more so then the newer builds for some reason (the Japan made 4800 being the exception).

If you can find the 4700s that used the AK4458, you can be sure it would measure better on the bench, but the "better" dac chip will not likely be audible, so I would stick with 4800 or 3800, mainly because of the DL paid option. Now if you are willing to spend time, potentially hours tweaking with the $20 app, the gap (perceivable SQ) between XT32 and DLBC could be much reduced, to the point some may actually find them so close that in some rare (I assume...) cases XT32 might even be preferred, as I can think of one member who expressed that subjective view right here on ASR.

The Q350 isn't that hard to drive to make a difference on the 3800 vs 4800, if your seating distance is not too far and you don't listen close to ref level. The recommenced amp power requirement is only 15-120 W (according to KEF spec), impedance would dip to 3.7 ohm, that isn't that bad based on ASR measurements (pasted below, so you can read carefully and see the frequency range of concern).

DSP processing is also fairly attractive to me since I enjoy experimenting a lot with different sound modes. When I used to have my Yamaha, they had a whole menu of different DSP options that Denon doesn't offer. The Auro 3d upgrade will also be a major add for me (even if only upscaling).

If I remember right (but I may remember wrong), the 3700 does not offer Auro 3D but the 3800 does). They all have the same DSP processor, according to the Masimo video. Ripeaudio should have mentioned that, I am surprised he didn't...

What you're saying about the amp capabilities makes a lot of sense to me honestly. But isn't it hard for any AVR to match up to even lower end speaker bandwidth? The KEF Q350 series for example is rated for 120w each and the center is 150w alone. The Pro Monitor 1000's are rated for 200w. That tells me the 2700h is vastly under powered, or am I not understanding that correctly?

Thx for the feedback, that was a great response

You are absolutely right, but keep in mind dlaloum tended to be on the safe side about the current requirement related issues. He has experience with speakers that dip very low and found certain amps couldn't do the job for him. You won't have such issues, unless you sit far away enough. Your speakers are not designed to play loud under those conditions anyway, it's maximum spl output is only 110 dB, that's at 1 meter, so if you sit from 4 meters, it will be 98 dB (without room gain, as room gain mainly affects the bass range) and that's 7 dB below reference, probably still loud enough for most people. At that high spl output level, the Q350 would likely complain (high distortions) more than the AVR would.

The Q350's impedance dips below 6 ohms, between about 120 to 400 Hz. Regardless, I would always put a quite usb fan on top, or blow from the back. I have been doing the same even on my AV preamp processors that don't care about speaker impedance.

 

[deejaystu]

If you can find the 4700s that used the AK4458, you can be sure it would measure better on the bench, but the "better" dac chip will not likely be audible, so I would stick with 4800 or 3800, mainly because of the DL paid option. Now if you are willing to spend time, potentially hours tweaking with the $20 app, the gap (perceivable SQ) between XT32 and DLBC could be much reduced, to the point some may actually find them so close that in some rare (I assume...) cases XT32 might even be preferred, as I can think of one member who expressed that subjective view right here on ASR.

The Q350 isn't that hard to drive to make a difference on the 3800 vs 4800, if your seating distance is not too far and you don't listen close to ref level. The recommenced amp power requirement is only 15-120 W (according to KEF spec), impedance would dip to 3.7 ohm, that isn't that bad based on ASR measurements (pasted below, so you can read carefully and see the frequency range of concern).



If I remember right (but I may remember wrong), the 3700 does not offer Auro 3D but the 3800 does). They all have the same DSP processor, according to the Masimo video. Ripeaudio should have mentioned that, I am surprised he didn't...



You are absolutely right, but keep in mind dlaloum tended to be on the safe side about the current requirement related issues. He has experience with speakers that dip very low and found certain amps couldn't do the job for him. You won't have such issues, unless you sit far away enough. Your speakers are not designed to play loud under those conditions anyway, it's maximum spl output is only 110 dB, that's at 1 meter, so if you sit from 4 meters, it will be 98 dB (without room gain, as room gain mainly affects the bass range) and that's 7 dB below reference, probably still loud enough for most people. At that high spl output level, the Q350 would likely complain (high distortions) more than the AVR would.

The Q350's impedance dips below 6 ohms, between about 120 to 400 Hz. Regardless, I would always put a quite usb fan on top, or blow from the back. I have been doing the same even on my AV preamp processors that don't care about speaker impedance.

You guys literally have this down to a science (no pun intended). Thanks a lot for that knowledge. The 2700h is on the basic Audyssey so even the XT32 would be a big upgrade I imagine. My plan is to try it out and sit on it for a while before I upgrade to Dirac. I really like the sound of the 2700h so I'm hoping I don't regret this upgrade!

 

[GabrielPhoto]

You guys literally have this down to a science (no pun intended). Thanks a lot for that knowledge. The 2700h is on the basic Audyssey so even the XT32 would be a big upgrade I imagine. My plan is to try it out and sit on it for a while before I upgrade to Dirac. I really like the sound of the 2700h so I'm hoping I don't regret this upgrade!

XT32 can do darn good when done properly..I have been surprised the more I work on it and specially because I love DEQ

 

[tesseractASR]

Thanks for that feedback, extremely helpful. I think since I'm staying "in the box" the monolithic amp on the 4800 seems extremely attractive if there really is better channel separation/dynamic like they say. The few tests I found on Youtube have reviewers stating that there is certainly an audible difference from 3800 to 4800, claiming brighter and more spacious. It's hard to say if you would notice a difference running externals at normal listening volumes, that would depend heavily on your external power. But I'm mainly looking for anyone else who is not running externals to chime in since that will be my primary application.

And yeah I agree from the 2700 to 3800/4800 there is plenty of stuff that makes the upgrade attractive. Pre support being the obvious, but also 4 discrete sub-outs which I will make use of, new GUI, more power, better quality amp, all 8k inputs vs just one, height channels, and then all of the other fluff they claim which I've yet to validated like the DDSC and AL32.

The other thing is I'm already reading rumors of new Denon 48 gbps AVR's in production to hit shelves early 2024. Makes me wonder if I should hold off until those come out.

I've owned both the 3800 and 4800. I have level-matched/blinded ABX-tested amplifiers. I am also an audio reviewer. Those Yoo Toob video reviews you saw are WORTHLESS for determining sound quality. I heard NO difference between the two and the methods the Yoo Toob guys used to come to their "determination" leaves a lot to be desired.

I chose the 4800 simply because of the selective channel pair amplifier disconnect, higher preout voltage and Japanese build. The improved jitter noise did not hurt. I don't like the analog-in performance, it is worse than the 3800. I sent the 3800 back regretfully, trying to come up with a reason to keep it. They are both solid units, one has a bit more flexibility than the other.

 

[Sal1950]

If you can find the 4700s that used the AK4458, you can be sure it would measure better on the bench, but the "better" dac chip will not likely be audible, so I would stick with 4800 or 3800, mainly because of the DL paid option. Now if you are willing to spend time, potentially hours tweaking with the $20 app, the gap (perceivable SQ) between XT32 and DLBC could be much reduced, to the point some may actually find them so close that in some rare (I assume...) cases XT32 might even be preferred, as I can think of one member who expressed that subjective view right here on ASR.

IME Your spot on with your comments and appraisal of the various units and options @peng
Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

 

[GabrielPhoto]

I've owned both the 3800 and 4800. I have level-matched/blinded ABX-tested amplifiers. I am also an audio reviewer. Those Yoo Toob video reviews you saw are WORTHLESS for determining sound quality. I heard NO difference between the two and the methods the Yoo Toob guys used to come to their "determination" leaves a lot to be desired.

I chose the 4800 simply because of the selective channel pair amplifier disconnect, higher preout voltage and Japanese build. The improved jitter noise did not hurt. I don't like the analog-in performance, it is worse than the 3800. I sent the 3800 back regretfully, trying to come up with a reason to keep it. They are both solid units, one has a bit more flexibility than the other.

Right on. That review almost is like he feels the more expensive units HAVE to sound better and he must say he notices it so people don't think his system or hearing is not good enough lol
Unlike you, I was biased to like the 4800 but like you I didn't hear differences so I sent back the 4800.

 

[peng]

You guys literally have this down to a science (no pun intended). Thanks a lot for that knowledge. The 2700h is on the basic Audyssey so even the XT32 would be a big upgrade I imagine. My plan is to try it out and sit on it for a while before I upgrade to Dirac. I really like the sound of the 2700h so I'm hoping I don't regret this upgrade!

If you like the 2700, I would bet 2:1 you will like the 3800 and the 4800. No one can tell you any of the models mentioned so far will not sound different in a sighted AB listening test, but many of us who have done level matched AB, apples to apples comparison, knows it is not easy to tell which one is playing in a double blind listening tests, or even just a single blind test using high quality stereo recordings.

For movie tracks, I would guess the same would likely be true for the 3800 vs 4800, because both have the same dsp chips, and probably implemented in very similar way, but I have never done any such comparison listening using movie tracks.

 

[dlaloum]

You guys literally have this down to a science (no pun intended). Thanks a lot for that knowledge. The 2700h is on the basic Audyssey so even the XT32 would be a big upgrade I imagine. My plan is to try it out and sit on it for a while before I upgrade to Dirac. I really like the sound of the 2700h so I'm hoping I don't regret this upgrade!

I had the Onkyo SR876 and the Integra DTR70.4 - almost identical amps, differing DSP's (the Integra was a few years later) - the Onkyo had XT the Integra had XT32 - in theory there might be differences.

I found them to be subjectively identical - XT32 allows the system to allocate more filters if it believes it to be required... but in many cases the additional filters aren't needed, in which case the limitation on XT is no limitation.

Note: I was unhappy with the end result of BOTH XT and XT32. - I am very happy with the end result of Dirac.

 

[Jack B]

I had the Onkyo SR876 and the Integra DTR70.4 - almost identical amps, differing DSP's (the Integra was a few years later) - the Onkyo had XT the Integra had XT32 - in theory there might be differences.

I found them to be subjectively identical - XT32 allows the system to allocate more filters if it believes it to be required... but in many cases the additional filters aren't needed, in which case the limitation on XT is no limitation.

Note: I was unhappy with the end result of BOTH XT and XT32. - I am very happy with the end result of Dirac.

I don't have much (if any!) to add. Bought the 4800 to replace a Marantz SR7011, wanted to get rid of the Marantz HDAMs and was intrigued by the availability of both Audyssey (built-in) AND Dirac (at extra cost). I'd already paid to get Auro 3D in the Marantz, and I like it, so no change there. Not using any of the Denon's internal amplifiers. Not sure if I can really hear a difference between the Marantz and the Denon. Still experimenting with the Audyssey app, and wondering if the Dirac would be worth the extra $$, and wondering if I have the brains to learn Ratbuddysey. The 4800 is a solid piece of gear, and runs cooler than the Marantz. Regards.

 

[dlaloum]

I don't have much (if any!) to add. Bought the 4800 to replace a Marantz SR7011, wanted to get rid of the Marantz HDAMs and was intrigued by the availability of both Audyssey (built-in) AND Dirac (at extra cost). I'd already paid to get Auro 3D in the Marantz, and I like it, so no change there. Not using any of the Denon's internal amplifiers. Not sure if I can really hear a difference between the Marantz and the Denon. Still experimenting with the Audyssey app, and wondering if the Dirac would be worth the extra $$, and wondering if I have the brains to learn Ratbuddysey. The 4800 is a solid piece of gear, and runs cooler than the Marantz. Regards.

It seems like the current generation of HDMI and DSP chips run cooler than those from 2005 to 2015... (and a bit later)

Which is great news for the longevity of our AVR's

Is Cool - Is Good !!!

 

[peng]

I don't have much (if any!) to add. Bought the 4800 to replace a Marantz SR7011, wanted to get rid of the Marantz HDAMs and was intrigued by the availability of both Audyssey (built-in) AND Dirac (at extra cost). I'd already paid to get Auro 3D in the Marantz, and I like it, so no change there. Not using any of the Denon's internal amplifiers. Not sure if I can really hear a difference between the Marantz and the Denon. Still experimenting with the Audyssey app, and wondering if the Dirac would be worth the extra $$, and wondering if I have the brains to learn Ratbuddysey. The 4800 is a solid piece of gear, and runs cooler than the Marantz. Regards.

It is cooler because you are using preamp mode? Also, no HDAMs = a little less heat too, alse being equal.

 

[Jack B]

Even after I'd gone over to all external power amplifiers (11 channels) with the Marantz, it still ran hotter than the Denon. Also, the heat from the Marantz seemed to be concentrated in one or two specific areas, whereas the Denon's heat output seems to be pretty evenly distributed. I think I read somewhere that the video processor area caused a lot of heat from the Marantz, even if unused. Still, it was totally reliable.

 

[dlaloum]

It is cooler because you are using preamp mode? Also, no HDAMs = a little less heat too, alse being equal.

SR7011 - 2016 AVR - chipsets are an earlier generationa and generate a lot more heat
X4800 - 2023 AVR - current generation chipsets run cooler (and manufacturers have become more wary / heat aware, and are deploying more heatsinks, after the heat issues of the last couple of generations!)

 

[peng]

SR7011 - 2016 AVR - chipsets are an earlier generationa and generate a lot more heat
X4800 - 2023 AVR - current generation chipsets run cooler (and manufacturers have become more wary / heat aware, and are deploying more heatsinks, after the heat issues of the last couple of generations!)

That's good, do you have a link to the source of the info about the current generation processing chipsets run cooler?

Regardless, my comments on the HDAM adds heat still stands, as it is just physics. Your point on the chipsets are good info, but not relevant to the point I made. Adding multiple channels of discrete buffers must = more heat, however insignificant the additional heat may be. So, whether the chipsets produce more heat or not, it would apply to both AVRs being compared and then the HDAM modules heat would add on top. As I stated, on all else being equal basis.

 

[dlaloum]

That's good, do you have a link to the source of the info about the current generation processing chipsets run cooler?

Regardless, my comments on the HDAM adds heat still stands, as it is just physics. Your point on the chipsets are good info, but not relevant to the point I made. Adding multiple channels of discrete buffers must = more heat, however insignificant the additional heat may be. So, whether the chipsets produce more heat or not, it would apply to both AVRs being compared and then the HDAM modules heat would add on top. As I stated, on all else being equal basis.

Most of the heat in previous generation AVR's came from HDMI and/or graphics/video processing chipsets and DSP's - from experience with my previous AVR's...

The analogue circuits (power amp, etc... in the Marantz's case - HDAM's) got warm but never really hot.

I think the engineers working on the AVR's came from a traditional audio background, rather than a digital/computing background, and did not have a good handle on cooling digital processors.
Marantz seems to have manged it sufficiently to keep the AVR's from going flakey (unreliable) - whereas Onkyo didn't get it under control until later...

by 2015 the worst of it was apparently over... I could fry an egg on the back of my 2008 Onkyo SR876 ... the back of my 2022 DRX3.4 is barely even warm.

 

[Karls_speaker_works]

What percent of the power dissipation came from the "HDMI and/or graphics/video processing chipsets and DSP's"?

The bias current through the amps is fairly easy to calculate and power drawn is easy to measure when the unit is idling. I would think it's at least 80% of the total dissipation of an AVR when idling based on some quick estimations I've done. As noted, the amps seem "cooler" because they are generally properly cooled with heatsinks. The processing chips probably did run hotter in previous generations due to reasons mentioned, but I would argue that it should be worded "most of the apparent temperature rise" may be dominated by the processing chips, since we don't know their actual thermal dissipation. IOW, I believe we are confusing "heat" with "temperature". i.e. Heat versus Temperature