Denon AVR-X4800H AVR Review

[davidc]

Similar, I would ask the question of how DLBC work with genuine full range speakers as those DT's have inbuilt 12" and 10" subs. I don't see why it wouldn't work. One for @Flak to comment on. Probably expedited as you are on a hard deadline as to the 30% discount

Yes, I will. My mains are VMPS Super Tower III. 15" passive radiator. 15", 12" and (2) 10" woofers.

 

[davidc]

Absolutely, someone like him would be worth listening to, though keep in mind he is naturally biased. My point is that lots of forum posts seem to indicate may hobbyists might be taking forum talks, including from reviewers, users who might be brand fans/loyalists too seriously. Obviously you are among the exceptions who at least know about @Flak , who is knowledgeable in DLBC for sure. One question I would like to ask Flak, is to confirm what Phil Jones alluded to in the recent D+M update YT video, that D+M/Masimo will get DL (that is without BC) to do some bass management too such as crossover. If that is true, I would think that your "genuine" full range speakers may not need DLBC, but I am not the authority so let's hear from flak, or you can open a ticket with Dirac's help line and hopefully get a response quick enough.

I did get the discount for my DLBC license (PC standalone only) and I tried it with one sub, quite happy with the results, I posted the FR graph not long too.

Edit: Found my graphs, linked in case you are interested to seeing:

Struggle replacing Old AVR - tried RZ50, 4800h, and Cinema 70 - what now?

Speaking of upgrade hell, I find myself in the middle of it after trying 3 new AVRs My Marantz 8002s (3 of them) are getting old and I'd like to get HDMI 2.1 and eArc. I also thought I could go separates and use the 8002s as an external amp as they certainly have better power than almost any...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Yes, I was correct. DLBC does put a high pass filter on the mains channel. It was discussed in this review and confirmed in a video interview with Denon's Phil Joans. The links are below this quote that I have copied. I guess ASR has not reviewed or tested DLBC yet? The good thing is that when ART is introduced for our AVR, you do not need to purchase DLBC as a precursor.

From Audioholics:

As Chief Audioholic Gene DellaSala noted in a recent article about the launch of Dirac Live Bass Control for Onkyo, Pioneer, and Integra gear, we’ve seen some products (from Audio Control and Arcam) that automatically place a high-pass filter on the main channels when Dirac Live Bass Control is active. That means you can’t set these channels to “large” or run them full-range. We have put in a request to Dirac to update DLBC to accommodate full-range support of the main speakers for users that want to take advantage full advantage of the low frequency bass output of very large capable tower speakers. We plan to discuss this in our up coming livestream this Wednesday, December 20, 2023 with Marantz to see the status of this request.

We've done some investigating and it appears to be a limitation of DLBC that Dirac has yet to resolve. We presume this will also be the case with DLBC implementation on (other brands) as well. Be mindful of this IF you wish to run your main L/R speakers full-range simultaneously with your powered subwoofers while using DLBC. This won't affect most users as we usually recommend bass managing ALL speakers as few people run true full-range towers capable of playing back LFE bass content.

— Gene DellaSala, President, Audioholics

Dirac Live Bass Control And HEOS Updates For Denon & Marantz!

Dirac Live Bass Control is now available for select Denon and Marantz products! Masimo also overhauled their HEOS app for a better wireless/streaming audio experience. Read on

www.audioholics.com

BIG Denon Marantz Feature Updates Livestream Event!

We livestream with Phil Jones of Masimo to discuss BIG feature updates to Denon and Marantz products. Dirac Live Bass Control is now available for select Den...

www.youtube.com

 

[peng]

Yes, I was correct. DLBC does put a high pass filter on the mains channel. It was discussed in this review and confirmed in a video interview with Denon's Phil Joans. The links are below this quote that I have copied. I guess ASR has not reviewed or tested DLBC yet? The good thing is that when ART is introduced for our AVR, you do not need to purchase DLBC as a precursor.

From Audioholics:

As Chief Audioholic Gene DellaSala noted in a recent article about the launch of Dirac Live Bass Control for Onkyo, Pioneer, and Integra gear, we’ve seen some products (from Audio Control and Arcam) that automatically place a high-pass filter on the main channels when Dirac Live Bass Control is active. That means you can’t set these channels to “large” or run them full-range. We have put in a request to Dirac to update DLBC to accommodate full-range support of the main speakers for users that want to take advantage full advantage of the low frequency bass output of very large capable tower speakers. We plan to discuss this in our up coming livestream this Wednesday, December 20, 2023 with Marantz to see the status of this request.

We've done some investigating and it appears to be a limitation of DLBC that Dirac has yet to resolve. We presume this will also be the case with DLBC implementation on (other brands) as well. Be mindful of this IF you wish to run your main L/R speakers full-range simultaneously with your powered subwoofers while using DLBC. This won't affect most users as we usually recommend bass managing ALL speakers as few people run true full-range towers capable of playing back LFE bass content.

— Gene DellaSala, President, Audioholics

Dirac Live Bass Control And HEOS Updates For Denon & Marantz!

Dirac Live Bass Control is now available for select Denon and Marantz products! Masimo also overhauled their HEOS app for a better wireless/streaming audio experience. Read on

www.audioholics.com

BIG Denon Marantz Feature Updates Livestream Event!

We livestream with Phil Jones of Masimo to discuss BIG feature updates to Denon and Marantz products. Dirac Live Bass Control is now available for select Den...

www.youtube.com

But you are saying the same thing I have said, what has it got to do with my post? Be clear, and never said anything about you being "not correct" in my first or second post. I was just suggesting we asked Flak to confirm what Phil Jones alluded to, "alluded" because iirc, he wasn't being 100% definitive, it was sort of something that he said was coming... My point is, if in fact Masimo is adding bass management to DL, then if you only use one subwoofer, you probably don't need the "BC" license and in that case we would be in agreement.

 

[davidc]

But you are saying the same thing I have said, what has it got to do with my post? I was just suggesting we asked Flak to confirm what Phil Jones alluded to, "alluded" because iirc, he wasn't being 100% definitive, it was sort of something that he said was coming...

Ok, I'll ask Flavio. I've got an open case with him at DIRAC. I thought Phil confirmed it in the video, but I don't want to watch the whole thing again. So, you watched the video and Phil didn't confirm it...just alluded to it?

 

[peng]

Ok, I'll ask Flavio. I've got an open case with him at DIRAC. I thought Phil confirmed it in the video, but I don't want to watch the whole thing again. So, you watched the video and Phil didn't confirm it...just alluded to it?

Yes, I watched it the day it was launched, it cover a quite upcoming updates, and he sort of casually, like a by the way kind of things, about the bass control. I also got the feeling that it is a Masimo, i.e. D+M thing, that it may be apply to others such as Onkyo, Arcam etc., but again to me I just don't recall he stated the whole thing as facts, but rather, something anticipated to be coming down the piple. I could be wrong, he might meant Dirac has already committed to do it. Like you, I am not going to re-watch that video. I actually hate those YT video and much prefer reading articles, to watching videos but I guess I am in the minority on this as I can see more and more YT videos are popping up, even bench test results.

 

[davidc]

Yes, I watched it the day it was launched, it cover a quite upcoming updates, and he sort of casually, like a by the way kind of things, about the bass control. I also got the feeling that it is a Masimo, i.e. D+M thing, that it may be apply to others such as Onkyo, Arcam etc., but again to me I just don't recall he stated the whole thing as facts, but rather, something anticipated to be coming down the piple. I could be wrong, he might meant Dirac has already committed to do it. Like you, I am not going to re-watch that video. I actually hate those YT video and much prefer reading articles, to watching videos but I guess I am in the minority on this as I can see more and more YT videos are popping up, even bench test results.

Peng...you are exactly like me. I much prefer to read articles as well rather than watching videos. I only like YT videos for repairing something like on my car or house. Other than that, if frustrates me. I keep saying, "Get to the point"! When I read, I can scan the article and read at my own speed.

 

[peng]

Peng...you are exactly like me. I much prefer to read articles as well rather than watching videos. I only like YT videos for repairing something like on my car or house. Other than that, if frustrates me. I keep saying, "Get to the point"! When I read, I can scan the article and read at my own speed.

If I quote one of those videos to make any points to anyone, I would always provide the time mark, if you catch my drift lol, and always appreciated others who did the same.

 

[davidc]

If I quote one of those videos to make any points to anyone, I would always provide the time mark, if you catch my drift lol, and always appreciated others who did the same.

Good point...but then I have to go back and watch it again. lol
I've reopened my ticket with DIRAC, hopefully Flavio (flac) will be the one to reply.

 

[David_Alexander]

About 7 minutes into that video that @davidc posted. Still could do with some further elucidation as the mention is that of a HPF being applied to mains when you have additional subs. Not sure if it would be the case if your mains and ancillary speakers are effectively subs themselves.

 

[davidc]

If I quote one of those videos to make any points to anyone, I would always provide the time mark, if you catch my drift lol, and always appreciated others who did the same.

Ok, got the reply from Flavio:

Flavio Fellah commented:
Hello,
yes, Dirac Bass Control applies a high pass filter but you can define at which frequency... very low if desired, please take into account though that the capabilities of reproducing the lowest frequencies at a relatively high volume are often very limited (hence a subwoofer is used)
However, if you want to take full advantage of all the capabilities of all speakers, then you need ART (Active Room Treatment) as it doesn't use crossovers.
It's possible that your Denon will support it but if/when are questions for Denon itself to answer

Kind regards,
Flavio

 

[peng]

Ok, got the reply from Flavio:

Flavio Fellah commented:
Hello,
yes, Dirac Bass Control applies a high pass filter but you can define at which frequency... very low if desired, please take into account though that the capabilities of reproducing the lowest frequencies at a relatively high volume are often very limited (hence a subwoofer is used)
However, if you want to take full advantage of all the capabilities of all speakers, then you need ART (Active Room Treatment) as it doesn't use crossovers.
It's possible that your Denon will support it but if/when are questions for Denon itself to answer View attachment 340991
Kind regards,
Flavio

Did you ask the wrong question? Phil Jones wasn't taking abut DLBC, of course DLBC applies HPF, it is bass control after all. He was talking about just the basic DL, with no BC. May be we do have to re-watch that video just to be sure, but I am sure enough that I won't be re-watching it today.

 

[davidc]

Did you ask the wrong question? Phil Jones wasn't taking abut DLBC, of course DLBC applies HPF, it is bass control after all. He was talking about just the basic DL, with no BC. May be we do have to re-watch that video just to be sure, but I am sure enough that I won't be re-watching it today.

No, I asked the correct question, and we also had been having a continuous discussion regarding Denon, DLBC, and ART regarding their functions, prices, and prerequisites.

Also, he is sort of familiar with the question as, as far as I know, he is the DIRAC contact that Audioholics and Denon talk to, although they don't usually name him.


Here is the question I posed to him:

Good Morning,

One last question regarding DLBC and the Denon AVRs.

Gene DellaSala of Audioholics and Phil Jones of Masimo mentioned that DLBC will put a high pass filter on the main L/R speakers when implemented. Given that I have main speakers capable of handling the bass, I may be sacrificing if I used even one subwoofer and DLBC, correct?.

Does DLBC use a non-defeatable high pass filter for the main channels?

Thank you.

David Crandon

 

[Steve Dallas]

Did you ask the wrong question? Phil Jones wasn't taking abut DLBC, of course DLBC applies HPF, it is bass control after all. He was talking about just the basic DL, with no BC. May be we do have to re-watch that video just to be sure, but I am sure enough that I won't be re-watching it today.

I can check this again this evening, but IIRC DL does not. It inherits what the AVR or user sets for speaker sizes, levels, distances, and crossover frequencies--likely from the initial Audyssey calibration, which Denon uses to set these variables. DL works across the broad spectrum as configured.

DLBC exposes a crossover slider in the DL UI that enables the user to set a crossover for each group of speakers.

 

[peng]

No, I asked the correct question, and we also had been having a continuous discussion regarding Denon, DLBC, and ART regarding their functions, prices, and prerequisites.

Also, he is sort of familiar with the question as, as far as I know, he is the DIRAC contact that Audioholics and Denon talk to, although they don't usually name him.


Here is the question I posed to him:

Good Morning,

One last question regarding DLBC and the Denon AVRs.

Gene DellaSala of Audioholics and Phil Jones of Masimo mentioned that DLBC will put a high pass filter on the main L/R speakers when implemented. Given that I have main speakers capable of handling the bass, I may be sacrificing if I used even one subwoofer and DLBC, correct?.

Does DLBC use a non-defeatable high pass filter for the main channels?

Thank you.

David Crandon

Okay then you have the question that I don't have, and I have the one that you don't have. Sounds funny but true. Your to do with DLBC, mine's about just DL, but the upcoming added feature Phil talked about. I hope tha's clear now.

 

[hiphop_odc]

Okay then you have the question that I don't have, and I have the one that you don't have. Sounds funny but true. Your to do with DLBC, mine's about just DL, but the upcoming added feature Phil talked about. I hope tha's clear now.

Maybe you think of bass management, that's a new free feature for DL

 

[ban25]

About 7 minutes into that video that @davidc posted. Still could do with some further elucidation as the mention is that of a HPF being applied to mains when you have additional subs. Not sure if it would be the case if your mains and ancillary speakers are effectively subs themselves.

When you use DLBC, the crossover is set by the user per speaker group. It is mandatory and defaults to 70 Hz, but you can set it to whatever you like. I believe it is possible to exclude a group of speakers, but if you do this, there will be no integration and (possibly) no correction to that speaker group.

DLBC is exclusively about subwoofers. If you don't have them, or want to run full-range speakers, don't use it, period.

 

[EWL5]

I can check this again this evening, but IIRC DL does not. It inherits what the AVR or user sets for speaker sizes, levels, distances, and crossover frequencies--likely from the initial Audyssey calibration. DL works across the broad spectrum as configured.

DLBC exposes a crossover slider in the DL UI that enables the user to set a crossover for each group of speakers.

This my understanding as well in my limited time w/DL.

 

[davidc]

Okay then you have the question that I don't have, and I have the one that you don't have. Sounds funny but true. Your to do with DLBC, mine's about just DL, but the upcoming added feature Phil talked about. I hope tha's clear now.

Yep, sorry about the confusion

 

[peng]

Maybe you think of bass management, that's a new free feature for DL

Yes, that's what I thought Phil alluded to.
Again, if he meant DLBC, there would have been no need to talk about it, because DLBC of couse will set crossovers, from launch time.

 

[David_Alexander]

Ok, got the reply from Flavio:

Flavio Fellah commented:
Hello,
yes, Dirac Bass Control applies a high pass filter but you can define at which frequency... very low if desired, please take into account though that the capabilities of reproducing the lowest frequencies at a relatively high volume are often very limited (hence a subwoofer is used)
However, if you want to take full advantage of all the capabilities of all speakers, then you need ART (Active Room Treatment) as it doesn't use crossovers.
It's possible that your Denon will support it but if/when are questions for Denon itself to answer View attachment 340991
Kind regards,
Flavio

Ok, but if you have full range speakers with the capability of going low, loud, as I suspect @SaChy has, then DLBC could work.

Although they are very well suited to DART, as and when this becomes available.