Struggle replacing Old AVR - tried RZ50, 4800h, and Cinema 70 - what now?

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

Speaking of upgrade hell, I find myself in the middle of it after trying 3 new AVRs

My Marantz 8002s (3 of them) are getting old and I'd like to get HDMI 2.1 and eArc. I also thought I could go separates and use the 8002s as an external amp as they certainly have better power than almost any Denon or Marantz on the market today.

My original expectation was better sound especially in stereo with the 8002 as the amp. Now I would settle for similar or very close sound since clearly none of these are the 8002's equals.

My focus is on music because I've lived with the 8002 for 15 years and as we'll find out later, it's very musical and almost an anomaly in the AVR world. My jaw often hits the floor in movies, shows, and games when the 8002 decides to show off. There's zero fear that anyone's jaw will hit the floor with any of the 3 AVRs I've purchased. In that regard, they are quite safe choices.

I bought a RZ50 and quickly returned it - the Onkyo sounded clinical in music and Dirac Live could not save it. It was difficult to switch between the 8002 and RZ50 in music - the RZ50 has a massive soundstage but it was barren. The 8002 is a much smaller canvas but that canvas has the quality of a Monet painting or a reproduction of it.

I bought a Denon 4800h and I had high expectations as it's similar to the Cinema 40 (the current top of the line AVR in Marantz's lineup) and made in Japan. I ran Audyssey XT32 and I was hoping that would also help bridge the gap to the 8002. Also, the 8002 is used as the amp in stereo so the 4800h is just a preamp, hopefully giving a leg up in musicality.

Unfortunately, the Denon 4800h even with the 8002 as the external amp cannot reproduce the music as the 15 year old SR8002 - guitars don't sound the same, voices have no presence etc. I enjoy it as background music a lot because it completely disappears sonically but I'm not sure that's a quality that Denon would like to be known for.

In movies, it has slam and is amazing but it's almost a bit too much for a living room theater and it gets tough taming its volume so I can hear the center channel without irritating my family. But the RZ50 and Cinema 70 are also slammers and would fare better in a dedicated home theater than a living room theater.

Finally, I bought a Cinema 70 + 8002 (amp) to use in preamp mode with all channels powered by the 8002. The Cinema 70 sounds stellar in music, well, stellar, until you play the same song with the 8002 and you hear parts of the song that are important.

But part of that can be my personal preference or what the 8002 does in Stereo mode which bypasses surround processing and seems to do its own thing. It seems to find a lot of nuance and detail in voices, guitars and all instruments and I've isolated that to the 100hz to 1khz range which is the fundamentals range of sound as I'm learning. Whatever the 8002 does there, it makes it different and imho magical. I've always wondered why folks thought that AVRs can't play stereo music and I suppose if you are used to the sound of your amazing stereo receiver, you're in for a surprise when you hear these AVRs which is where I find myself, only I have an AVR that does that.

I can't fault the RZ50 because it's a cheap AVR on sale and is well made. I can't fault the Cinema 70 because it sounds great for a cheap AVR with separates and is also well made.

I can only find fault with the 4800h which has the best version of Audyssey and is the Cinema 40's cousin. At its normal price (I paid $1,400), I'd expect the 4800h to match the 8002 in stereo music given the fact that 15 years have passed by.

Here's a review that sums up the 8002 and this is echoed by anyone that's heard this puppy:



It's exactly what I would have said. It's a magical AVR and now I wonder if even the AH1 can come close in 2 channel stereo. People have even been critical of the $14,000 AV10 and AMP10 in music... My BDI cabinet cannot accommodate any of those so they are not even in consideration, nor am I inclined to pay that much.

I can keep the 8002 and use it for music but it's a massive pain changing the volume.

Also if I keep the 4800h or Cinema 70, I'll have to settle for a less refined movie theater, TV, and game experience which are 75% of my use case.

So what choice do I have? Should I call Marantz and Denon and ask them to get back to work?

I think if you listened long enough your brain will adjust.

 

[truwarrior22]

Yeah, that's an interesting one about the sound possibly changing - details, clarity, and center image are words I would also use. I've been trying to pull the sound to the center and give it a warmer tone. I wonder if you had the same issue I had.

We'll see if a new calibration with my old approach and limiting frequencies gets me there.

Consider trying an Arcam. You may find it at a reduced price as an open-box item at Best Buy. You can take advantage of the extended holiday return policy to try it out for a month. This might be a good option if you’re not satisfied with the sound quality of certain music genres. I couldn't get certain genres like punk rock to sound good on my SR8015 (even with Audyssey). All the Arcam models sound good so it depends on how much power and features you need.

For a high-quality two-channel music experience, maybe consider using an integrated amplifier with a Home Theater (HT) bypass feature. This setup involves connecting the integrated amplifier between your Audio/Video Receiver (AVR) and speakers, allowing you to bypass the AVR’s processing for a "purer" sound.

 

[Steve Dallas]

Sorry off topic but your curve is so nice, what does your room looks like?

The room looks like this:

amroc - THE Room Mode Calculator

HTML5 room mode calculator. Read and hear the tune of axial, tangential and oblique modes. Scientific sources included.

amcoustics.com

Bought the Dirac license during the Black Friday sale. Still hammering it into submission, but so far it looks like this:

Versus previously posted Audyssey XT32 results:

 

[peng]

I bought the DLBC license at BF price too. I have to use the PC standalone version and for now only use one sub. The other sub just failed at the time anyway, it is fixed now but windows can't really do 2.2 so I'll be using one sub only when using DLBC on the Anthem. Eventually I have to buy the MOTU 4 channel DAC and then I can take better use of DLBC. It still requires tweaking for the curves to look pretty, but it is easy enough to get much better looking curves than with ARC G. Where DLBC does well is in the bass range and impulse response. For some reason, ARC G just couldn't do a better job on the bass, and strangely, after the last FW update, that should have nothing to do with REQ/C, I re-run ARC G mainly because one of sub had the amp replaced, and I found that ARC G was able to sort of dial in the bass, still rough but a lot better than before. I spent the whole morning tweaking with the help of REW and it still could not come close to the performance of DLBC, or XT32 using the Editor app. It does well from 500 Hz and up and also in positions not far from the MMP so overall it is still good, just not as good as the other two.

 

[techsamurai]

I think if you listened long enough your brain will adjust.

2 años después (2 years later) and the 4800H sounded the same until something changed. Spotify upgraded to FLAC. I immediately realized something was different and found out.

I listened to Pure Direct on the 8002 and 4800h and they are different even with the 4800h being powered by the 8002 and in pre-amp mode.

Qualitatively, I'd say the 8002 is a couple of levels above it. The EQ (when you switch from Pure Direct to Stereo) is also something else - I don't what Audyssey was doing but they absolutely nailed it with the 8002.

I recommend people listen to "Ma Solitude" by Georges Moustaki and Pink Martini - the first minute is all one needs.

What parts are involved here on the 4800H? Obviously the 4800H's DAC (TI PCM5102A) is used vs the 8002's DAC (Crystal CS4398). These are Delta-Sigma DACs and people here say you can't hear differences so we could rule out the DACs. However, folks also said that with 320kbps and FLAC and here we are.

What else is involved here in Pure Direct mode and the 8002 handling all amplification?

 

[peng]

2 años después (2 years later) and the 4800H sounded the same until something changed. Spotify upgraded to FLAC. I immediately realized something was different and found out.

I listened to Pure Direct on the 8002 and 4800h and they are different even with the 4800h being powered by the 8002 and in pre-amp mode.

Qualitatively, I'd say the 8002 is a couple of levels above it. The EQ (when you switch from Pure Direct to Stereo) is also something else - I don't what Audyssey was doing but they absolutely nailed it with the 8002.

I recommend people listen to "Ma Solitude" by Georges Moustaki and Pink Martini - the first minute is all one needs.

What parts are involved here on the 4800H? Obviously the 4800H's DAC (TI PCM5102A) is used vs the 8002's DAC (Crystal CS4398). These are Delta-Sigma DACs and people here say you can't hear differences so we could rule out the DACs. However, folks also said that with 320kbps and FLAC and here we are.

What else is involved here in Pure Direct mode and the 8002 handling all amplification?

This thread has 23 pages so instead of searching, may I ask if you taken REW measurements to see what’s going on?

There is no way the 4800 and 8002 can sound that much different in an apples to apples comparison listening. If they do, something is wrong with one, or both of them.

 

[techsamurai]

Have you taken measurements to see what’s going on? There is no way the 4800 and 8002 can sound that much different in an apples to apples comparison listening. If they do, something is wrong with one, or both of them.

Hi Peng,

It's been a while. Hope everything is going well!

Yeah, that's what folks would say. What does Pure Direct do? Does it use the sub and crossover frequencies or is it just the 2 channel handling full frequencies at that point?

Source Direct was still using the sub and I could check that but Pure Direct makes it hard to identify usage without the TV.

 

[peng]

Hi Peng,

It's been a while. Hope everything is going well!

Yeah, that's what folks would say. What does Pure Direct do? Does it use the sub and crossover frequencies or is it just the 2 channel handling full frequencies at that point?

Source Direct was still using the sub and I could check that but Pure Direct makes it hard to identify usage without the TV.

According to the owner's manual:
AVR-X4800H:

SR8002:

I don't have the manual, it likely has something similar but may not be exactly the same.

If you use analog inputs on both, use a CD player to play tracks that you are most familiar with, and use pure direct mode, then it should bypass all processing including Audyssey, and will bypass the DAC as well. If you want the subwoofer to be off too, then just turn if off.

 

[techsamurai]

According to the owner's manual:
AVR-X4800H:

View attachment 508109

SR8002:

I don't have the manual, it likely has something similar but may not be exactly the same.

If you use analog inputs on both, use a CD player to play tracks that you are most familiar with, and use pure direct mode, then it should bypass all processing including Audyssey, and will bypass the DAC as well. If you off the subwoofer to be off too, then just turn if off.

Great ideas.

I'll try with the sub off first to see if it's using the sub. I did change the volumes but I will confirm that it's not engaging it.

 

[techsamurai]

Here's the Marantz 8002, Denon 4800h (Audyssey XT32), and Denon 4800h with Cinema 70 Audyssey MultEq modified settings (+1, +2, +3, +2, +1) L+R midrange.

Scary stuff

Orange Marantz 8002
Brown Denon 4800h
Blue Denon 4800h with 9-band EQ from Cinema 70 (my first EQ guys - Herbert Von Karajan would be impressed)


View attachment 321638

This is downright scary - look at the blue from the brown and how close it tracks the orange and this is not the work of a professional but just me fiddling quickly with my ears and 9-band equalization from memory - my first equalization ever And it was done on a different AVR and copied to the other one.

Had I not known I did it, I would not believe a person can do that. This is like magic.

Easily the most impressive display of acoustic listening skills on this site, if not of all time.

 

[voodooless]

look at the blue from the brown and how close it tracks the orange and this is not the work of a professional but just me fiddling quickly with my ears and 9-band equalization from memory

It’s not close at all. Your graph shows almost 32 bits of dynamic range, or about 190 dB! Everything gets compressed into lines that seem to roughly match. Zoom in to show about 60 dB or so, and the differences will become very apparent.

 

[techsamurai]

It’s not close at all. Your graph shows almost 32 bits of dynamic range, or about 190 dB! Everything gets compressed into lines that seem to roughly match. Zoom in to show about 60 dB or so, and the differences will become very apparent.

I'll check that out. I'm curious to look at closer areas and also apply less smoothing.

While you might be right that they may not be close if you zoom in, you need to understand these were done with 9-Band equalization, my ears, and memory, and very quickly. With those limitations it would have been impossible to match them unless sound only had 9 hz and ears and sound memory were perfect.

Also the REW measurements came long after the equalization so there was no help other than my ear to guide me. In fact, the REW measurements were done on a different device since I'd sent back the original one. Close enough (Cinema 70 vs Denon 4800h) but it's still different versions of Audyssey and crossovers etc.

But they still tracked pretty well.

 

[techsamurai]

The switch from 320kbps to FLAC has really brought the 4800h to life. I also brought bass up by 5db on the sub. I'd tried that setting before and didn't like it at all but now with FLAC it's almost mandatory which is why I felt compelled to play with the sub.

Since I switched to the 4800h, I'd say my music listening dropped by over 50-80%. Now with FLAC, I'm back to listening - I'm not sure how much compared to the 8002 but I enjoy listening again.

I actually got goosebumps for the first time from the 4800h. That's a first in music.