Denon x3800h vs x4800h for sound?

[peng]

Ah, that makes sense!
Then this audiophonics seems perfect and easy for me to get (I'm in Europe).

Audiophonics AP300AP300-S500NCS500NC Power Amplifier Ncore NC502MP

The Audiophonics AP300-S500NC is a stereo amplifier based on a Hypex Ncore NC502MP amplifier module. It is ideal for providing a significant power reserve (2x500W @ 4Ω) without sacrificing sound reproduction quality.

www.audiophonics.fr

I thought you might be in Europe, that's why I mentioned Audiophonics. That amp looks like a value king! It even has RCA inputs, though I would still use RCA to XLR if you have them, if not, then try RCA first and if you heard no hiss/hum then there is no need to spend money for nothing.

 

[PGAMiami]

Ah, that makes sense!
Then this audiophonics seems perfect and easy for me to get (I'm in Europe).

Audiophonics AP300AP300-S500NCS500NC Power Amplifier Ncore NC502MP

The Audiophonics AP300-S500NC is a stereo amplifier based on a Hypex Ncore NC502MP amplifier module. It is ideal for providing a significant power reserve (2x500W @ 4Ω) without sacrificing sound reproduction quality.

www.audiophonics.fr

I’m using 4 Benchmark AHB2 amps with the 4800. Sounds great and I would expect similar results with the audiophonics. Plenty of gain. Only problem I had was with 60hz hum. I’m using the Benchmark XLR RCA adapter cables. Tried many things to get rid of the hum. Only thing that worked was using a Furhman balanced power transformer that allows one to safely float the ground. With this is place, the system is dead quiet. Just one thing to keep in mind since the 3800/4800 only have RCA outputs and you may be using amps with XLR inputs.

 

[peng]

I’m using 4 Benchmark AHB2 amps with the 4800. Sounds great and I would expect similar results with the audiophonics. Plenty of gain. Only problem I had was with 60hz hum. I’m using the Benchmark XLR RCA adapter cables. Tried many things to get rid of the hum. Only thing that worked was using a Furhman balanced power transformer that allows one to safely float the ground. With this is place, the system is dead quiet. Just one thing to keep in mind since the 3800/4800 only have RCA outputs and you may be using amps with XLR inputs.

I have used low cost rca to xlr interconnects with the buckeye amp nc502MP, no hiss and hum whatsoever. The Benchmark rca to xlr cables are much more expensive and are designed to do the job almost as good as using xlr to xlr cables, so I am curious to know why you were getting hum. Maybe your supply source has excessive dc offset? Did you ask Benchnark about possible root causes?

 

[PGAMiami]

I have used low cost rca to xlr interconnects with the buckeye amp nc502MP, no hiss and hum whatsoever. The Benchmark rca to xlr cables are much more expensive and are designed to do the job almost as good as using xlr to xlr cables, so I am curious to know why you were getting hum. Maybe your supply source has excessive dc offset? Did you ask Benchnark about possible root causes?

Called Benchmark, even tried a Jensen isolation transformer that can float the ground on the cables selectively on each side. Nothing worked until used the Furman balanced power isolation transformer and flipped the switch to float the ground.

Benchmark cables and interconnects are extremely well made. Worth every penny. No snake oil just impeccable manufacturing, materials and workmanship. They will last a lifetime and more.

 

[Chromatischism]

Really? I thought they were nearly identical inside. Would that cause an audible difference in sound quality/clarity?

The 4xxx series is always built differently than the 3xxx series.

3800:

4800:

 

[peng]

The 4xxx series is always built differently than the 3xxx series.

3800:
View attachment 379630

4800:
View attachment 379631

Quite different in physical layout, very similar in parts used, and circuitry.

Examples, same dac, volume control, opa and dsp ics, and power amps (but different boards and heatsinks, and main power supply.

 

[Buckchester]

I bought a 3800 recently and have had no issues. My previous AVR was a Marantz SR5005 and my subjective opinion is that the 3800 sounds better, likely due to the upgrade from Audyssey MultEQ to XT32. The bass measurements with REW are much better, so again, that's probably the difference I hear right there.

 

[peng]

I bought a 3800 recently and have had no issues. My previous AVR was a Marantz SR5005 and my subjective opinion is that the 3800 sounds better, likely due to the upgrade from Audyssey MultEQ to XT32. The bass measurements with REW are much better, so again, that's probably the difference I hear right there.

100%, xt32 sub eq can do a noticeably better job smoothing the 10 to 250 Hz range, I have enough REW graphs to prove that.

 

[Tiago Pimentel]

Thanks guys. Btw, both 3800 and 4800 support Dirac Live. If I buy Dirac Live, would I still need REW or will Dirac take care of all the system EQ including sub time allign?

Thanks

 

[popej]

The 4xxx series is always built differently than the 3xxx series.

They can't be the same, can they?

AMP layout is new for 4xxx, 4700 was similar to 3800. My guess is, that previously difference was in DSP part, now it is moved to amps PCB. Maybe it is because of including Dirac support for 3800.

 

[PGAMiami]

Thanks guys. Btw, both 3800 and 4800 support Dirac Live. If I buy Dirac Live, would I still need REW or will Dirac take care of all the system EQ including sub time allign?

Thanks

Dirac will time align everything. You will need to buy a calibrated microphone from minidsp and a stand for the microphone.

 

[peng]

They can't be the same, can they?

AMP layout is new for 4xxx, 4700 was similar to 3800. My guess is, that previously difference was in DSP part, now it is moved to amps PCB. Maybe it is because of including Dirac support for 3800.

Layout aside, the power amp circuitry and parts (including the output devices) are the same for the 3600,3700,4700, and the corresponding Marantz (SR6014 through 7015), even the rail voltages are the same, I only notes a slight difference in the input capacitor for the 3X00 (for no apparent reason). We don't know if that changed for the 3800, 4800, but I would bet they will still be the same/same difference lol... Regardless, if I facing a choice between the 3800 and 4800, I would likely still go with the 4800 but that's only because I was used to the 4000 series of the past, when they do have more useful features than the 3000 series, the gap has narrowed significantly now.

 

[popej]

Layout aside, the power amp circuitry and parts (including the output devices) are the same for the 3600,3700,4700

No reason to change, what is working well enough. Actually other brands use quite similar schematics for amps.

PCB layout seems to come from 6xxx, where it allows to fit 11 channels easier. Maybe it is treated as a better solution, but IMO it is a rather weak reason to upgrade from 3800 to 4800. OK, better that, than cripple 3800, to differentiate products

 

[Tiago Pimentel]

Guys, still wondering about something. Is it "enough" to get external power for the main stereo channels? Or is it necessary to also get it for the Center channel?

 

[peng]

Guys, still wondering about something. Is it "enough" to get external power for the main stereo channels? Or is it necessary to also get it for the Center channel?

Typically, you would use ext amp for the center chamnel, for the same reasons you need it for the LR channels because for movies, the center channel will usually work as hard or harder than the L and R channels.

 

[Tiago Pimentel]

Thank you all for your input. I think the Denon x3800h, for the size of my room and speakers used, will be enough (just thinking in watts). My question is, in terms of audio quality, would a dedicated power amp for the main 3 front channels have an audible difference (cleaner peaks, for example) or if it's negligible. If it's the latter, I have other stuff to invest money in.

Thanks
Tiago

 

[Verig]

It's negligible. Denon has enough juice for normal monitors. Some years ago the answer would have been different but these better tier avrs are really good nowadays.

 

[peng]

Thank you all for your input. I think the Denon x3800h, for the size of my room and speakers used, will be enough (just thinking in watts). My question is, in terms of audio quality, would a dedicated power amp for the main 3 front channels have an audible difference (cleaner peaks, for example) or if it's negligible. If it's the latter, I have other stuff to invest money in.

Thanks
Tiago

If you know the X3800H have just enough juice for your system, then using external amp(s) that can give you another 3 dB more for the rare peaks, it may make an audible difference in those instances. That means if you are to get an ext. amp, be sure to get one rated for at least 200 W/300 W 8/4 ohms, otherwise there is not much point, other than taking some load off the AVR.

 

[rcstevensonaz]

You can always start with the Denon X3800H now and see how well it works over the coming months. If you think you need better power for your front R/C/L speakers, you can pick up a 3 channel amp (or 3 mono amps) later once Europe's version of Black Friday rolls around.

Side note: Wow!!! Great to see pre-outs on the 3x00 series. I always had to purchase 4x00 series in the past (currently an X4400H) to get pre-outs.

 

[EWL5]

You can always start with the Denon X3800H now and see how well it works over the coming months. If you think you need better power for your front R/C/L speakers, you can pick up a 3 channel amp (or 3 mono amps) later once Europe's version of Black Friday rolls around.

Side note: Wow!!! Great to see pre-outs on the 3x00 series. I always had to purchase 4x00 series in the past (currently an X4400H) to get pre-outs.

Yeah, the 3800's the best bang for your buck in AVRs right now (especially at a flash sale price of ~$1k)!