Onkyo TX-NR7100 AVR Review

[beagleman]

This thing clips and then ends up outputting a fraction of its claimed power without obviously notifying the owner and some are defending it?

It's remarkable how many issues Amir has uncovered with audio electronics.

I think the reason why, is that with normal listening and use, this will virtually never happen.

Not so much defending the unit, but simply putting it in a more realistic perspective.

Only when running full range test tones at high levels for long periods would the protection engage, meaning (I do truly assume you realize this) unless on a test bench OR speaker outputs shorted at high volumes, it is a non issue.

A convoluted design and implementation for sure, I agree, but not something that would impact users in reality.

 

[peng]

A 30W continuous output would result in at least 300W peaks, severely and audibly clipping the amplifiers.

Of course, if someone actually needs 30 W continuous output (let's assume 8 ohms nominal and is 30 W for just the LCR channels, each), one should not use AVRs, any AVR, in fact would need some of those most powerful power amps available, like a bunch of McIntosh 2 kW mono amps. Oh, and the recommended dedicated 115 V/20 A outlets (say one per mono amp).

I only need about 0.2 W cont., 20 W peak most of the time, quadruple that occasionally so my little AVR would be fine but I use separates anyway, that's just me though. It depends on use cases, naturally.

That, I believe, is the real audio science behind this issue, and should explain why it is highly unlikely to be an issue.

EDIT: I did also point out that a typical 87dB reasonably priced speaker likely to be driven by a receiver will start compressing and sounding poor around 100db, typically. By 107db, or 100w, it's game over and the speaker has no very little additional peak SPLs to give. You really need some expensive, high excursion woofers to meaningfully change this equation, or very bassy, inefficient speakers. At that point, you've spent thousands on speakers and bought separates...

Agreed, as they say, people don't realize how little "power" (really hate that term lol) they actually need, and/or people don't realize their amps are actually clipping during use, or may clip much more often than they know. Both statements can be/are true.

 

[peng]

I think the reason why, is that with normal listening and use, this will virtually never happen.

Not so much defending the unit, but simply putting it in a more realistic perspective.

Only when running full range test tones at high levels for long periods would the protection engage, meaning (I do truly assume you realize this) unless on a test bench OR speaker outputs shorted at high volumes, it is a non issue.

A convoluted design and implementation for sure, I agree, but not something that would impact users in reality.

It's one of those cases, you are right, but they (those who feel that's a real issue that needs addressing) are right too, it just depends.

 

[welwynnick]

Agreed, as they say, people don't realize how little "power" (really hate that term lol) they actually need, and/or people don't realize their amps are actually clipping during use, or may clip much more often than they know. Both statements can be/are true.

Just curious - what is it that you hate?

 

[peng]

Just curious - what is it that you hate?

I explained that many times before but since you asked, I hate it because for audio amplifiers and speakers it is the wrong term to begin with. For example, what does it really mean when we (sadly, that includes me) say we need 30 W (ryanmh1 example) what does that really mean scientifically speaking?

If I remember right you were an EE too right, so you must know what I am trying to say. Hint, without knowing the load characteristics, such as impedance, phase angles vs frequency, details of the contents etc.. It makes sense to say a 1kW baseboard heater is dissipating 1000 W, anyone with basic E knowledge can calculate the current and the voltage would be constant, and known at say 115, 230 or whatever Vrms etc. With audio amps, not so.. and it is not too meaningful to say two 100 W rated amp have the same output, without knowing a lot more details about that 100 W spec.

 

[welwynnick]

I'm not sure how else you would do it. Is there a better way?

Yes, I'm also an EE.

 

[ryanmh1]

With audio amps, not so.. and it is not too meaningful to say two 100 W rated amp have the same output, without knowing a lot more details about that 100 W spec.

Correct. My Luxman R-117, for example, hypothetically is a 160W receiver, but because it is a rail shifter, it will actually do peak power of a ridiculous 450 watts for a fraction of a second. Musical transients last only for a fraction of a second--none really longer than about 50ms except possibly sustained pipe organ pedals at 15Hz, or various electronica/dubstep type of stuff. So it behaves like a 400+ watt amp on program material. The same is true of any home theater receiver, musical transients that are hitting those +10dB or +20dB over mean levels last only for a fraction of a second.

Relating that to the Onkyo, it will happily sustain rock music with an average level from a single speaker slightly louder than a lawnmower all day long, at the listening position, on the proverbial 87Db/1W/1M speakers using, say, 35W to hit that average level. And it should bang out those transients all day long without triggering the protection, but will clip somewhat. It will sound the same as any other comparable amplifier which peaks out at 170W before it clips, since only around 7dB of dynamic headroom is available at those levels. 3dB of the peak transients will be clipped. On a transient which is 10dB over the RMS mean, the Luxman, on the other hand, can play just as loud, with no clipping, since we have over 10dB of headroom at 35 watts (i.e. 350 watts).

But now let's hook up some really inefficient speakers, so 84dB/1W/1M. Our average level now MUST lower to hairdryer or blender levels, since we can only sustain around 91dB on average. This level is safe for two hours, maximum, before hearing damage sets in. If we do not lower the level, the Onkyo will have insufficient dynamic headroom to play much of anything short of Metallica's Death Magnetic, arguably the worst recorded, most insanely compressed album in history. It is unlistenable noise on a decent stereo. Plus, you now might trip a protection circuit if you try to keep it at "lawnmower" levels on these ridiculously inefficient speakers. The Luxman, on the other hand, is now performing on par with how the Onkyo performed with the previous 87dB speakers--okay, but not really. It needs to be turned down to hairdryer/blender average levels, as the Onkyo really should have been before.

I realize this is belaboring the point, a bit, but I think it is important to understand how these protection circuits work, why the engineering appropriately is how it is, and why it is not a genuine problem in usual situations. It's important to me that people get the best sound they can for the most reasonable price. This product is the answer to that for vast numbers of budget constrained audiophiles. I gave this a lot of thought previously when considering the RZ50. The reviews here, while extremely helpful, nearly knocked it out of consideration because it does require some thought to realize there is no actual issue. You also need to composite all 5 or 6 of the reviews and review all of those measurements to figure this out. It takes over thirty seconds of severe abuse to trip the circuit. That is an eternity in music into speakers, but not for a sinewave into a load resistor. These units (RZ50,SX505,SR7100,SX303) have been getting dragged through the mud here for 2 or 3 years over a non-issue on music. The actual science and measurements of musical loudness (crest factors) and acoustics, on top of user reports, belie the implicit assertion that vast numbers of users are running around not getting the power they paid for. Unless they are heavily clipping their systems, they must be getting it.

Yes, these units have some minor foibles, and Denons might have some measurably better performance in certain areas. However, Onkyo offers Dirac at a price level at least $500 cheaper than comparable Denon units with XT32, particularly so now that Denon wants a minimum of $1600 for anything with XT32. If you don't need external amps, this Onkyo/Pioneer often can be had $800 to $1000 cheaper than Denon, which does not offer a competing unit. High precision room correction (i.e. not Audyssey XT, MCACC, YPOA, etc.) is likely to make a vastly larger audible improvement in the average system than anything else, period, end of story, do not pass go, because any other answer is wrong. This has been proven and demonstrated time and time again with solid measurements. Even if there are minor issues, or SINAD or whatever could be better, little of it matters on a macro level compared to the benefits room correction will bring.

 

[kyuu]

I realize this is belaboring the point, a bit, but I think it is important to understand how these protection circuits work, why they the engineering is at the level it is, and why they are not genuine problems in usual situations. These units (RZ50,SX505,SR7100,SX303) have been getting dragged through the mud here for 2 or 3 years over a non-issue. This is, in view, bad audio science. Yes, they have some minor foibles, and Denon's might have some measureably better performance in certain areas. However, Onkyo offers Dirac at a price level at least $500 cheaper than comparable Denon units with XT32, particularly so now that Denon wants a minimum of $1600 for anything with XT32. If you don't need external amps, this Onkyo/Pioneer oten can be had $800 to $1000 cheaper than Denon, which does not offer a competitive unit. High precision room correction (i.e. not Audyssey XT) is likely to make a vastly larger audible improvement in the average system than anything else, period, end of story, do not pass go, because any other answer is wrong. This has been proven and demonstrated time and time again with solid measurements. Even if there are minor issues, or SINAD or whatever could be better, little of it matters on a macro level compared to the benefits room correction will bring.

Not to belabor the point, but going into a power limiting mode with no notification to the user and no documentation of this mode is not excused by other features. The AVR should be able to deliver the power that is promised in the specs, and if it cannot the specs should be changed or, at the very least, the user should be made aware. There is nothing "bad audio science" about expecting good engineering practice and honest specifications. The fact is that other AVRs can and do provide their promised power without undocumented power limiting modes.

Frankly, it doesn't matter how likely it is that one might trigger this mode in normal usage. That likelihood is merely speculation. There's no way to know how many people may or may not be affected because, again, the unit does not inform the user when the mode has been triggered.

 

[peng]

I'm not sure how else you would do it. Is there a better way?

Yes, I'm also an EE.

Again, I posted the details of my suggestions, though I realize there is no hope it would ever been adopted by manufacturers because it would mean more work (testing and measuring) for them and may put them in disadvantage by publishing more information when their competitors are doing it. If you are interested I could search for those couple of posts I did a while ago. For now, suffice to say, even by providing the maximum output voltage into 8 ohms and maximum current into 4 and 2 ohms, at specified THD, would go a long way.

For example, amp X:

At THD <= 0.01%, 20-20000 Hz, i.e. -80 dB
- Maximum output voltage 70 Vrms into 8 ohm nominal
- Maximum output current 10 A rms for not less than 10 minutes, into 4 ohm nominal, phase angle not larger than 45 degrees
- Output impedance 0.1 ohm maximum, also 20-20,000 Hz

So, for those interested in "watts", 70 V, 8 ohms implies 612.5 W average (average is used, to avoid using the Watt rms misnomer) into 8 ohms, or 400 W into 4 ohms

That's obviously over simplified as it is only for two channels driven simultaneously and without much details on the effects of phase angle vs frequency, but it is just a quick example of how it cannot be improved from the typical 200W 8 ohms, 20-20,000 Hz, THD <=0.05% that often would invite posts that cry wolf, warning that such amps may look powerful but would starve many speakers that have low impedance dips of "currents", or low "EPDR" that's another term I don't hate, but consider it way overrated, or misused on forums, often due to some poster's incomplete understanding on the term Sterophile apparently started/originated years ago.

Even such over simplified way is more useful/meaningful than the ways typical way AVR manufacturers are using, but I still doubt they would do it for reasons I mentioned earlier.

 

[peng]

Not to belabor the point, but going into a power limiting mode with no notification to the user and no documentation of this mode is not excused by other features.

I thought @dlaloum mentioned that there is notification, but it is not easily noticeable if I understood him. If so, I agree it is not excusable, a valid point, not belaboring at all.

 

[kyuu]

I thought @dlaloum mentioned that there is notification, but it is not easily noticeable if I understood him. If so, I agree it is not excusable, a valid point, not belaboring at all.

He said something about a protection mode being indicated in the web interface. The two issues with that are, one, people are not likely to be looking at that after initial setup, if at all. The notification needs to be presented to the user in a noticeable way. Two, we don't actually know that the protection mode indicated in the web interface is the one under discussion.

 

[dlaloum]

I thought @dlaloum mentioned that there is notification, but it is not easily noticeable if I understood him. If so, I agree it is not excusable, a valid point, not belaboring at all.

Yes that's right - there is no obvious notice that the AVR has gone into "protect" (terminology based on Onkyo Web interface term) mode... where max power out is circa 40W rather than 100W.... the only indicator is on the status screen of the web interface.

And yes, that means it is possible that users have been happily using their AVR as a 40W unit....

 

[dlaloum]

I was about to leap to the defence of the poor TX-NR7100. I was going to say lets ignore Marketing and treat it as a 40Wpc receiver, no shame in that, and any short-term extra is a bonus. I was going to say how can you reasonably expect more for your $1000 when you have so many channels, and so many functions, there's hardly any money left to do anything right? Sure, you can spend more money on the TX-RZ70 and get better results, it's not like Onkyo don't know how to do it. Amir's tests did actually beat Onkyo's own THD+N spec - the same spec incidentally, for ALL of Onkyo's current receivers. How can it be reasonable to expect high performance and functionality for a low price? You're getting what you pay for, here, aren't you?

Then I looked at the other low cost receivers that Amir has tested. None of them looked good compared to stereo equipment, but the Sony ZA1100ES, and Denon X3600H of course, show what you can get for similar money. When I was the amplifier reviewer for AVForums I did a subjective review of the much older TX-SR608. The big review sites - What HiFi, Trusted Reviews, Tech Radar, Home Theater Review - all gave it four or five stars. It was the worst thing I had ever heard at the time, but I tried very hard to look on the up-side, and thought I was being generous by giving it three stars. I still got into a lot of trouble with the editor and the importer, and stopped reviewing shortly after that. It does sound like Onkyo haven't changed, and are still trying to get away with as little as possible.

I would argue that the X3600H (now the X3800H) is a competitor to the RZ50, and not the NR7100.... you would be looking at something like the X1800 or X2800 to be in the right market category.

 

[peng]

I would argue that the X3600H (now the X3800H) is a competitor to the RZ50, and not the NR7100.... you would be looking at something like the X1800 or X2800 to be in the right market category.

Agreed, the x1800h is 7.1, and has front L/R preput/preamp mode,but the NR7100 can do 9.1 and has Dirac Live. For my use, I opted for the x1800h as I only need 2 channels anyway so no need to pay more for the 7100.

 

[dlaloum]

For me the Integra DRX 3.4 (an NR7100 with pre-outs) has been my stopgap after my previous flagship model AVR released its magic smoke... - but I use it in combination with external power amps for the front L/C/R.

Once Dirac ART is released for the mainstream market, I will be looking again at the AVR options, and if the environment looks like it does now, my 3.4 will be replaced with an RZ70/DRX8.4/LX805 the D&M equivalents get too pricey (equivalent in both functionality and power when driving difficult loads), I would prefer a true AVR based system (ie retire the external power amps, and simplify!).

But ART does not look like it will be there for another year or so....

In the meantime, the DRX 3.4 (NR7100) with external amps has my setup sounding very good indeed - and just as good as previous generation flagship models.... so I don't hesitate with recommending these AVR's - with the proviso's of noting that they are NOT suitable for difficult 4 ohm speakers.

 

[ryanmh1]

For me the Integra DRX 3.4 (an NR7100 with pre-outs) has been my stopgap after my previous flagship model AVR released its magic smoke... - but I use it in combination with external power amps for the front L/C/R.

Once Dirac ART is released for the mainstream market, I will be looking again at the AVR options, and if the environment looks like it does now, my 3.4 will be replaced with an RZ70/DRX8.4/LX805 the D&M equivalents get too pricey (equivalent in both functionality and power when driving difficult loads), I would prefer a true AVR based system (ie retire the external power amps, and simplify!).

Haven't seen any confirmation that RZ70 and its twins will definitely have ART. If they do, that's going to be a huge value leader for music systems. Not so convinced (yet) of the value in a theater setup, but time will tell how it does.

On this power limiting issue, looking at prior reviews, it also seems the RZ50 does not do it on 8 ohms. This didn't seem to either after firmware update (which may have just been the hard reset resetting the limiter). Looking at a dozen speakers likely to be used with this just now, 90% were 8 ohms anyway. Even less of a potential issue.

Just saw there are 7 remaining DRX-3.4 refurb units on eBay for $700. That's a nice deal if you like the look with the buttons all accessible on the front (I do). It's $100 cheaper than typical Pio/Onkyo refurb pricing on the RZ50 and LX505. If the preouts are as good as they are on the RZ50, that's a great value. If I didn't have a particular requirement for a loudness control, I gladly would have bought one. If someone's got a real bug up their shorts about the noise/distortion on the included front L/R amps, the pre-outs are a quick fix.

Denon really needs to drop their pricing on the X3800H and add XT32 to the X2800H. Unless someone has really specialized requirements, they really are not competitive any more. This thing kills the X2800H on features/price, RZ50 kills the X3800H on price. If they get Dirac ART on the RZ70, Denon will be sunk on price/value with X4800H and X6800H. They'll have what, nominally better bass processing and flexibility, amp reassignment, Dynamic EQ, and 13 channels for an extra $1500 plus cost of an amp on the X6800H for those who must have them? And on X4800H you need to pay for an amp to get 11! Denon's value proposition will be edge cases, at best (although in fairness, I'm one of them due to Audyssey's Dynamic EQ).

 

[Power Pop 23]

Just saw there are 7 remaining DRX-3.4 refurb units on eBay for $700. That's a nice deal if you like the look with the buttons all accessible on the front (I do). It's $100 cheaper than typical Pio/Onkyo refurb pricing on the RZ50 and LX505. If the preouts are as good as they are on the RZ50, that's a great value. If I didn't have a particular requirement for a loudness control, I gladly would have bought one. If someone's got a real bug up their shorts about the noise/distortion on the included front L/R amps, the pre-outs are a quick fix

Adorama (via Slickdeals) is currently showing inventory of new samples of the Integra DRX-3.4 with a 5 year warranty for $749

https://www.adorama.com/indrx34.html?sdtid=17682804&emailprice=t&sterm=zTlylsT%3AexyPWCty-6Ww21zPUkCwOe1tRUZ5UA0&utm_source=rflaid62905&utm_medium=affiliate

 

[ban25]

That's a nice deal if you like the look with the buttons all accessible on the front (I do). It's $100 cheaper than typical Pio/Onkyo refurb pricing on the RZ50 and LX505. If the preouts are as good as they are on the RZ50, that's a great value. If I didn't have a particular requirement for a loudness control, I gladly would have bought one. If someone's got a real bug up their shorts about the noise/distortion on the included front L/R amps, the pre-outs are a quick fix.

This is a very under-rated design element. I love the fact that I can turn on my receiver, amps, etc. and go straight to the right input with a press of a button, especially when listening to vinyl. I can't stand input selector knobs.

 

[Miker 1102]

HTPC is dead as far as I'm concerned. Not because of Atmos - because of streaming. De facto current video and audio media distribution method is streaming, everything else is either dying, already dead and/or significantly less convenient to use. And each streaming platform has its own apps that don't integrate well into some common HTPC UI (e.g. Kodi), and some of these apps in their PC versions don't have the same features (like support for surround sound formats or download, for example) as their Android or iOS/iPadOS/tvOS counterparts. The result of this is unacceptably bad user experience. HTPC was great once all content were files on local disks or NAS but this time passed long time ago.

Google TV player with all the streaming apps and Kodi app (or VLC, or anything you like) for local content result in incomparably superior user experience. Probably the same is true about Apple TV (I have no experience with it).

Hope is not close to dead. There isn't even a platform you can play your own movies own except for the shield. You don't own any movie thats not copied on a hard drive ir a disc. . The kaleidcape movie is a rental. It's time to think that film we paid for by subscription is where we have access to 20 percent of popular movie libraries. You don't want a locked down internet where you can only rent a small portion of your favorite film. The madvr and the Kaleidescape project is costing people between 10 and 15k. I can play 80 gb 4k atmos Movie on my 400 PC with the same picture . It's a fact. Envy started off as Share codec/ free code project. He then went for picjng for Vr capital for it to sell the envy concept to make money ..good for him. But it's to sell high tech hardware to non techies and download Hollywood rentals for non HTC literate people.

 

[ryanmh1]

Adorama (via Slickdeals) is currently showing inventory of new samples of the Integra DRX-3.4 with a 5 year warranty for $749

https://www.adorama.com/indrx34.html?sdtid=17682804&emailprice=t&sterm=zTlylsT%3AexyPWCty-6Ww21zPUkCwOe1tRUZ5UA0&utm_source=rflaid62905&utm_medium=affiliate

Wow. That's the killer app right there for anyone not needing 7.2.4. New with full preouts, Dirac, metal faceplate, buckets of 12V triggers for $750? Bested perhaps only by Best Buy selling the VSX-LX505 for $999. Open box (no shipping) cheaper, but will come with full mfr warranty. You get 2 extra processing channels but less triggers. And these Onkyo have a significant benefit in that the pre-outs measured very clean up to at least 2V without shutting off the amps. That's potentially a big deal if you want to use any of the internal amps, which you will, and need to crank it up to get that last 3dB. And the best part with BB is that if you hate it, the return is really simple. I can't believe how cheap these have gotten. Denon's days of grifting a full $1700 retail for the X3800H are numbered.