Denon AVR-X4800H AVR Review

[pogo]

Who said anything about volrage drop?

I say that. We are talking about real sound events at a real load in the real world. Idealized assumptions are not appropriate here and the protection circuits are also not designed to work properly outside the AVR spec - this guarantees a deterioration of the MTBF! An inquiry to the manufacturer Denon recently confirmed the following to me:

Dear Mr. xxx,
thank you for contacting us.


As you can see from the technical data, we recommend connecting speakers with an impedance of 6 to 16 ohms for most devices, and 4 to 16 ohms for some models such as the Avr-X4800H. Any type of speaker with this nominal impedance can be used without hesitation.


The nominal impedance is the specification of the resistance at rest. During operation and with increasing volume, the actual impedance can deviate greatly from the nominal impedance. In addition, the impedance is frequency dependent. The impedance can then assume values significantly below the nominal impedance to below 1 Ohm. With the variety of models offered and the most diverse properties, we can therefore not make a generally binding recommendation. Since a low impedance means an increased power output and thus a higher heating of the amplifier, a critical operating condition can be reached, which could mean a defect in the amplifier or the speakers.


Therefore, make sure that the minimum impedance (in the entire frequency spectrum) should generally not fall below a value of 3.2 ohms.

With current AV receivers, you can change the impedance of the connected speakers using a key combination described in the operating instructions. If you select 4 ohms here, the amplifier limits the available power to prevent overloads.

So in your case, the Nubert nuLine 34 speakers are not recommended. --> Here are the speaker measurements including EPDR: Link

With best regards
Your Product Support Team

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator

 

[soerenssen]

The nominal impedance is the specification of the resistance at rest. During operation and with increasing volume, the actual impedance can deviate greatly from the nominal impedance. In addition, the impedance is frequency dependent. The impedance can then assume values significantly below the nominal impedance to below 1 Ohm. Therefore, make sure that the minimum impedance (in the entire frequency spectrum) should generally not fall below a value of 3.2 ohms.
So in your case, the Nubert nuLine 34 speakers are not recommended.

If your speakers don't go lower than 3.2 ohms, why don't they recommend them? Is it because of the EPDR dips below 2 ohms? They assume full range, so cutting off lower frequencies could keep your AVR and speakers on the safe side.

 

[pogo]

It is actually all in the manufacturer's guidelines and you only have to check against your speaker specs/measurements.

 

[EWL5]

I say that. We are talking about real sound events at a real load in the real world. Idealized assumptions are not appropriate here and the protection circuits are also not designed to work properly outside the AVR spec - this guarantees a deterioration of the MTBF! An inquiry to the manufacturer Denon recently confirmed the following to me:

Dear Mr. xxx,
thank you for contacting us.


As you can see from the technical data, we recommend connecting speakers with an impedance of 6 to 16 ohms for most devices, and 4 to 16 ohms for some models such as the Avr-X4800H. Any type of speaker with this nominal impedance can be used without hesitation.


The nominal impedance is the specification of the resistance at rest. During operation and with increasing volume, the actual impedance can deviate greatly from the nominal impedance. In addition, the impedance is frequency dependent. The impedance can then assume values significantly below the nominal impedance to below 1 Ohm. With the variety of models offered and the most diverse properties, we can therefore not make a generally binding recommendation. Since a low impedance means an increased power output and thus a higher heating of the amplifier, a critical operating condition can be reached, which could mean a defect in the amplifier or the speakers.


Therefore, make sure that the minimum impedance (in the entire frequency spectrum) should generally not fall below a value of 3.2 ohms.

With current AV receivers, you can change the impedance of the connected speakers using a key combination described in the operating instructions. If you select 4 ohms here, the amplifier limits the available power to prevent overloads.

So in your case, the Nubert nuLine 34 speakers are not recommended. --> Here are the speaker measurements including EPDR: Link

With best regards
Your Product Support Team

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator

To be honest, I would have made the same recommendation. If using only internal amps, the 4800 is better. The 3800 is ok as long as you send at least 2 channels (typicall L and R) via pre-outs to beefy, external amps. That's what I've done for my L/R channels by sending them to my 2nd gen Emotiva XPA2.

 

[peng]

If your speakers don't go lower than 3.2 ohms, why don't they recommend them? Is it because of the EPDR dips below 2 ohms? They assume full range, so cutting off lower frequencies could keep your AVR and speakers on the safe side.

I wouldn't waste time trying to figure out what he's saying, I tried and realized it's a waste of my time so I am done with that.. I think it has to do with translating from German, and something got lost in translating.

The speaker's impedance/phase angle he linked is however, a good example for us, thanks to him Using the translator he linked (thanks Pogo for that again):

Actually a classic 4-ohm speaker, whose impedance (red curve) drops to 3.2 ohms only between 150 - 700 hertz. But the EPDR (gray curve), which results from impedance and phase, drops to well below 2 ohms at two points.

Even without seeing that, you can read directly from the curves he included:

I marked up the area of concern. You can see that not only the impedance dips below 3.5 ohms, it also spans a wide range, from 150 to 700 Hz, that's more than 4 octaves!!
Music (including vocal, male or female) and movie contents have a lot of energy in that range and the amp will obviously spend a lot of time working hard in that range. That is not the same with a narrow dip to around 3 ohms for the KEF reference speakers in less than one octave.

The low EPDR curve helps emphasizing the issue for people who naturally are familiar with impedance but not phase angle so it is useful that way. And it works, as it obviously got your attention because of the low EPDR below 2 ohms, if you only look at the impedance, you might feel good just using such speakers with a so called 4 ohm rated class AB power amps.

My point to those who tend to get fixated on one or two thing is that while it is good to have much more "power" than what is actually needed, a lot of people can actually get by with their AVRs, even for difficult to drive speakers like the one used in this example. For example, someone using the speakers near field, say at 2.5 meters, and anything louder than 85 dB maximum (peak), 65 dB (average) is too loud for him/her, than something like the AVR-X4800H can do the job nicely. Manufacturers are not going to tell you that for the obvious reasons, good reasons. What you can do, is not the same as what you should do. If I have speaker like this one, or even your reference 3 Meta, I will definitely not use an AVR, any AVR. In fact, I wouldn't use any class AB amp rated less than 500 W 4 ohms either.

The good news is, apparently, class D amps, such as the ones you are considering, is not going to be bothered by the low EPDR, so if you go with the NCx amps with adequate SMPS, you don't have to worry about the EPDR values. I say apparently because I am relying on the information from the ASR thread I linked before, in which some amp designers/experts provided some insight on that, but there no definitive "proof" in any of the posts that I can remember, though whatever argument presented seem would make sense. Regardless, if you are going to use the amps you mentioned earlier, EPDR or not, you are well covered.

Stereophile has started calculating EPDR.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/goldenear-brx-bookshelf-reference-x-loudspeaker-measurements And he is going back to previous reviews and adding this in. EPDR (Equivalent Peak Dissipation Resistance) takes the impedance and phase data and computes a new impedance that shows what equivalent...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[peng]

I say that. We are talking about real sound events at a real load in the real world. Idealized assumptions are not appropriate here and the protection circuits are also not designed to work properly outside the AVR spec - this guarantees a deterioration of the MTBF! An inquiry to the manufacturer Denon recently confirmed the following to me:

Dear Mr. xxx,
thank you for contacting us.


As you can see from the technical data, we recommend connecting speakers with an impedance of 6 to 16 ohms for most devices, and 4 to 16 ohms for some models such as the Avr-X4800H. Any type of speaker with this nominal impedance can be used without hesitation.


The nominal impedance is the specification of the resistance at rest. During operation and with increasing volume, the actual impedance can deviate greatly from the nominal impedance. In addition, the impedance is frequency dependent. The impedance can then assume values significantly below the nominal impedance to below 1 Ohm. With the variety of models offered and the most diverse properties, we can therefore not make a generally binding recommendation. Since a low impedance means an increased power output and thus a higher heating of the amplifier, a critical operating condition can be reached, which could mean a defect in the amplifier or the speakers.


Therefore, make sure that the minimum impedance (in the entire frequency spectrum) should generally not fall below a value of 3.2 ohms.

With current AV receivers, you can change the impedance of the connected speakers using a key combination described in the operating instructions. If you select 4 ohms here, the amplifier limits the available power to prevent overloads.

So in your case, the Nubert nuLine 34 speakers are not recommended. --> Here are the speaker measurements including EPDR: Link

With best regards
Your Product Support Team

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator

This is the last time I respond to your post, as I find it difficult to understand your purpose of responding to my posts. I have no issue with what you stated, and no issue with Denon's response to you, but I do not understand why you keep telling him those things when there has been nothing I said in my posts that would trigger such responses from you. In fact, I have been practically saying the same things to the op, that is @soerenssen, but I said those things to him in response to his questions. In contrast, I have never asked you a single question, except one, that is, the reason why you keep responding to my posts instead of responding directly to the person who asked the questions that you may feel necessary to respond.

That's what puzzles me, nothing against you, nothing personal, just don't see the point going back and forth.., for no reasons at all. Lastly, thank you for the link to the Nuber nuline 34 speaker's impedance/phase angle curves, I would keep that for future use as example of truly difficult to drive speakers.

 

[pogo]

I think it has to do with translating from German, and something got lost in translating.

Nothing has been lost. The EPDR values are available and have been communicated to Denon. Denon recommends not to use such speakers directly on the AVR to avoid damage. Nothing more but also nothing less was communicated.

 

[Jack B]

To be honest, I would have made the same recommendation. If using only internal amps, the 4800 is better. The 3800 is ok as long as you send at least 2 channels (typicall L and R) via pre-outs to beefy, external amps. That's what I've done for my L/R channels by sending them to my 2nd gen Emotiva XPA2.

I think I (accidentally) won the lottery here: External power amp with massive heat sinks for the 3 front channels, receiver's internal amplifier for the surrounds and overheads.

This was the case with my previous Marantz SR7011, which only got really hot above the video circuitry. Replaced it with the Denon 4800, which seems to run cooler than the Marantz.

If you're worried about pushing the Denon too hard, just shift the heavy lifting to an external amplifier (which likely has the space advantage for better heat-sinking and better airflow)....and you can rest assured that you're not sending your Denon to an early grave. PS: Agreed that fan cooling is a good idea.

 

[soerenssen]

I recorded a short comparison video of Yamaha A3080 vs Denon 4800H.
Frankly after calibrating SPL levels of both receivers to ~60 dB, they sound more similar than not, yet Yamaha being slightly brighter/edgy (clear?) to my ears - the reason could be better DAC in Yamaha, and/or extended HF response comparing to Denon, just speculating.

For the reference speakers rated 4 ohms by KEF, don't worry about the amp's 8 ohm output, focus on the power output into 4 ohms and 2 ohms, make sense?

I cannot compare the Denon with other AVRs, but I noticed some differences in clarity since I sent back my power amp, using the Denon alone for LCR now.
- Jennifer Warner's Bird on a wire: when the male singer joins with his "mmmmmm" at 00:40 - it was very clearly noticeable on the Denon+NCx500 combo, but without the power amp it's more blended in, not so articulated.
- Yesterday I was watching Top Gun: Maverick (for the first time, so no comparison there), and I had to turn on the subtitle to understand the speech coming from the KEF R6 Meta. I'm talking about open scenes, not when they have the oxygen mask on inside the cabin of the fighter jet. Same problem in Mad Max: Fury Road, as mentioned in a previous post. I tried to increase the center level by 2-2-5dB. Volume is increased but not clarity.
- I listen to metal music a lot, but everything is mashed together especially at lower volumes, not much separation. At higher volumes it's becoming too harsh so I'll have to EQ for sure.

I'd expect some improvements (to a certain extent) with the new power amp once it arrives, especially with dedicated power supplies for each amp this time.
Aside from the power amp, based on your experience, how much can DAC quality (especially at lower volumes) contribute to these clarity issues? It would be good to know how much of potential quality I leave on the table, especially when using the Denon for music.

 

[soerenssen]

@peng Pairing the Denon with a 27dB NCx500 seems to be a good match (better than the 25dB gain of the Audiophonics for sure). If the power amp is shared between the Denon and an external 2ch DAC/pre-amp with balanced out, do you recommend a power amp with variable gain settings or can fixed 27dB gain be used with both 2V and 4V outputs?

Edit: I've received the impedance and phase curve from KEF in the meantime. EPDR is missing, they cannot provide that.

 

[peng]

@peng Pairing the Denon with a 27dB NCx500 seems to be a good match (better than the 25dB gain of the Audiophonics for sure). If the power amp is shared between the Denon and an external 2ch DAC/pre-amp with balanced out, do you recommend a power amp with variable gain settings or can fixed 27dB gain be used with both 2V and 4V outputs?

Edit: I've received the impedance and phase curve from KEF in the meantime. EPDR is missing, they cannot provide that.

I am not surprises they didn't measure the EPDR. They surely recognize EPDR could be useful to some extent, but it is not a substitute for the impedance and phase vs frequency curves. You can now compare KEF's with Erin's (Ref 1 meta), and it is obvious that, the EPDR for the Reference 3 Meta look similar, probably a little better, by comparing the curves. The magnitude curve looks very similar.

For example:

Ref 1:
At near 40 Hz, Impedance magnitude is about 3.7 ohms, phase angle is about -42 deg.
For the range between 70 and 300 Hz, the impedance magnitude is close to 4 ohms on average, no sharp dips, and phase is less than 30 deg. for the most part.

Ref 3:
At near 40 Hz, impedance magnitude is almost 3.2 ohms, phase angle is about -22 deg.
For the range between the same 70 to 300 Hz, impedance is lower, a little higher than 3 ohms, so about 1 ohm lower than the Ref1, but phase looks better, below 25 deg. for the most part.

It is very approximate, for the obvious reason so please double check yourself. By the way, if you use subwoofer, setting crossover to 60 to 80 Hz should help avoiding the worse dip.

View attachment 308502

 

[peng]

@peng Pairing the Denon with a 27dB NCx500 seems to be a good match (better than the 25dB gain of the Audiophonics for sure). If the power amp is shared between the Denon and an external 2ch DAC/pre-amp with balanced out, do you recommend a power amp with variable gain settings or can fixed 27dB gain be used with both 2V and 4V outputs?

I would keep it simple, fixed 27 dB gain will be fine.

 

[soerenssen]

I would keep it simple, fixed 27 dB gain will be fine.

I've been thinking about this clarity issue that I'm currently having with the center speaker. I remember that it was slightly better when I had the stereo power amp driving at least the FR / FL channels. Can it be because the AVR had to power only the center and the surrounds (more power shared between less speakers)? Is 3ch amp the way to go then, instead of 2ch?

 

[Jack B]

I've been thinking about this clarity issue that I'm currently having with the center speaker. I remember that it was slightly better when I had the stereo power amp driving at least the FR / FL channels. Can it be because the AVR had to power only the center and the surrounds (more power shared between less speakers)? Is 3ch amp the way to go then, instead of 2ch?

Speaking mostly out of ignorance here, but I vote yes for three-channel. Several experts have noted that for movies, almost all of the dialog and much of the sound comes from the center channel (low bass is not an issue here, or should not be).

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

I cannot compare the Denon with other AVRs, but I noticed some differences in clarity since I sent back my power amp, using the Denon alone for LCR now.
- Jennifer Warner's Bird on a wire: when the male singer joins with his "mmmmmm" at 00:40 - it was very clearly noticeable on the Denon+NCx500 combo, but without the power amp it's more blended in, not so articulated.
- Yesterday I was watching Top Gun: Maverick (for the first time, so no comparison there), and I had to turn on the subtitle to understand the speech coming from the KEF R6 Meta. I'm talking about open scenes, not when they have the oxygen mask on inside the cabin of the fighter jet. Same problem in Mad Max: Fury Road, as mentioned in a previous post. I tried to increase the center level by 2-2-5dB. Volume is increased but not clarity.
- I listen to metal music a lot, but everything is mashed together especially at lower volumes, not much separation. At higher volumes it's becoming too harsh so I'll have to EQ for sure.

I'd expect some improvements (to a certain extent) with the new power amp once it arrives, especially with dedicated power supplies for each amp this time.
Aside from the power amp, based on your experience, how much can DAC quality (especially at lower volumes) contribute to these clarity issues? It would be good to know how much of potential quality I leave on the table, especially when using the Denon for music.

Same problem I had with all other brands except Anthem coupled with 3 way center.

 

[xrqp]

So, people should use their brains and understand the review rather than thinking "recommend good, not recommended bad". This post IS NOT a criticism of the recommendation.

That said, I do feel like it's important to note that the amplifier performance of the 4800H is not that much different than the 3800H. The HDMI-in amplifier SINAD is ~84.5dB(3800) vs ~86dB(4800).

Spoiler

SNR for the 3800H is actually better than the 4800H. (not clear if this is a valid comparison due to ground loop?)

Spoiler

The power difference is minimal with the 3800H at 114W(8 ohm), 135W(4 ohm) both channels driven, and the 4800H at 134W & 175W respectively. This is only about 30% more, which might get you 1dB of extra output?

So, while the DAC SINAD on the 4800H is surprisingly improved a decent amount at 95dB vs 87dB, considering this is distortion-dominated SINAD I can't see how it would be a good choice for anyone who was considering the 3800H to run out and pay the premium for the 4800H.

Regarding your last paragraph: "So, while the DAC SINAD on the 4800H is surprisingly improved a decent amount at 95dB vs 87dB, considering this is distortion-dominated SINAD I can't see how it would be a good choice for anyone who was considering the 3800H to run out and pay the premium for the 4800H."

Why does the "distortion dominated" matter when comparing the 95 to the 87?

 

[xrqp]

We could also vote based on his entitled attitude

He did not sound entitled to me. Fair question he asked.

Maybe add a poll, or replace the poll, with one that asks "How do you rate this unit based on Amirs review and what you know about the features and useability of the unit?" Since Amir does not do much on features.

Or a poll for "owners only" with the same question "How do you rate this unit based on Amirs review and what you know about the features and useability of the unit?"

 

[Sancus]

Why does the "distortion dominated" matter when comparing the 95 to the 87?

It's borderline impossible to hear -80dB distortion on headphones, let alone on speakers in a home environment.

Noise on the other hand is at least possible to hear if your speakers are high enough sensitivity. In the form of hiss when there is otherwise complete silence.

 

[soerenssen]

Same problem I had with all other brands except Anthem coupled with 3 way center.

Did you try an external amp? What center do you have?

 

[Dobbyisfree]

My advice remains:

1. Apply a house curve with Dirac
2. Confirm results with REW
3. Buy a subwoofer

Any differences between amps, once properly level-matched, will be impossible to discern in a blind A/B test. The KEFs, with their small 6.5" woofers, are unable to compete with a good 8-12" subwoofer. Consider KEF's specifications for the KF92: -3 dB at 11 Hz compared to those of the Reference 3 Metas: -6 dB at 28 Hz.

As far as the heat is concerned. The majority of it is from the AVR's HDMI board and internal processing, and that will be active no matter what speakers are driven. I ran my full 5.1 setup on a Denon X3700H for a year -- no external amplification -- and had no issues with heat or clipping.

@soerenssen you can see that my previous comments and Ban25's have been similar.

If you have problems with the sound, particularly the more recent issue you've reported with the clarity of dialogue from the centre, in my opinion one of the last considerations down the list is a power amplification upgrade.

General starting points to focus on, in my opinion, would be show us the speaker locations and the room and the room surfaces/treatment. Probably main reason number 1 for dialogue issue.

Two, your room correction system. Show us your results. Is it set up properly? Does it show the dialogue issue with the measurements of the centre speakers output for example? Is it correcting it properly? Or are you not using room correction? My centre speaker dialogue is awful without correction, overly bass heavy from room/boundary gain makes it sound muffled.

Note that those two potentials above may even have a fix that doesn't cost anything.

Three though. How can anyone, using an AVR, complain about power drive to speakers and/or heat generation when they are not using a subwoofer. From memory, Peng said your low impedance point in your main speakers falls at 40Hz or something close to that. You are sending the LFE channel with peaks (at reference) up to 115dB in those speakers at those frequencies. So, at -20dB master volume, 95dB. A subwoofer (or preferably more than one) needs to be helping with (or doing all of) that.

Finally, the use of the word "hot" is personal. For example. If I leave my x3700 playing Maverick at -16dB master volume to KEF Q900, Q200c and Q950 (5.2) crossed over to the subwoofers but passing through the 4K HDR video. The Aircom on top but switched off it averages out to around 40-45 degrees Celsius on the top surface. I don't call that hot.

My 2.5 way KEF towers have quite low impedance and phase dips (I don't think as extreme as your Metas) but overall good sensitivity. The 3 way Q200c is the opposite and has awful sensitivity.

All above, as always, in my opinion.